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excuse this long introduction it's a bit

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different

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but this preface can be skipped you can

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go to the time stamp there

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if you want to get straight to the

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bernardo castro up in john verveiki

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conversation

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many of you may be new to this channel

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and if so my name is kurt jaimungle

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i'm a filmmaker as well as i have a

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background in math and physics and i'm

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intensely interested in something called

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theories of everything

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now this includes the standard unified

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field theories that

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i'm sure you've heard of but it also

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includes the philosophical theories of

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everything such as

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that of carl fristins or donald

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hoffman's or

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ian mcgill chris each of whom i've

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interviewed on this channel and the

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links will be in the description

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this episode features two titans of

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their respective positions

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bernardo castro defending idealism that

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is

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the philosophical doctrine that we are

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all part of the same mind or at least

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that

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than a material reality whereas john

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vervicky takes the position of monism

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and naturalism when i speak to the

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different prodigious

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interviewees on this channel i generally

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ask them about their views on

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other intellectuals such as douglas

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hofstetter or what do you think of roger

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penrose's idea of orchestrated objective

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reduction

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and so on and i in a tongue-in-cheek

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manner call it

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theomaki that is to say battle of the

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gods

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now clearly this is facetious because

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it's a sin or at least i think it's a

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sin to consider any human a god

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but there is some truth in the sense

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that they're god-like in their

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intellectual and

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cognitive prowess however this episode

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is

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different first of all it's the first

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time i've had on two people at once

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and i'm less interested in critiquing

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that is battling skirmishing than i am

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about getting the interviewees to

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understand one another's positions

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and constructively critique if they're

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going to critique at all

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so i call it theo locution and it will

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likely be a new series

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started on this channel as well donald

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hoffman was supposed to show up but

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wasn't able to and it actually turned

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out wonderfully because

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castrop and verveiki had so much so much

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to talk about and if you read the

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comments or i'll

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list some of the comments right now it

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seems like it's one of the best

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interviews or podcasts on this channel

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in other news

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the patreon for this channel is going to

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be revamped as it stands right now

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it's currently 100 for support i do zero

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in terms of making a nicety like signing

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cards and mailing it to someone or

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creating a custom video i don't have

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time for that

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it's my time is i feel already stretched

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to my

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my limits as it is but there may be a

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way to integrate the work already

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conducted

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into incentives for patrons so for

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example

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i may be writing a book on theories of

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everything

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i definitely take notes on the different

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interviewees

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as research and what i can do is publish

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some of that or

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give some of that to the different tiers

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people seem to be interested in that as

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well as

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watching or being with me while a live

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stream a studying session

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for some of these interviews that's

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another incentive for a certain tier

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there are other ideas i have and i'm

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also interested in hearing what

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perks you think i should offer but the

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whole point of this is that this channel

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is growing

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it's growing it is it's extremely

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flattering that it's growing it's

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a rate that i didn't think it would it

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far surpasses my expectations for what

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people

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are willing to listen to a three-hour

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conversation

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on on meticulous technicalities and

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intricacies and abstruse mechanics of

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these different

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theories and theorists while

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simultaneously is

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taking a huge toll on me both physically

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for sure

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i'm exhausted much of the time and then

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spiritually yes because it's

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destabilizing to

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have to entertain many different ideas

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as to what the heck reality is

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and then cognitively for sure studying

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for this is

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difficult it would be great if just the

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patreon covered income and then this way

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i could find time to spend

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and relax and even sleep while i sleep

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but sleep well

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and spend time quality time with my wife

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and quality time with my family

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plenty of that is mismanagement of my

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own time but

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it's also the stress of

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uncertainty as to what i'm going to do

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for income and so on

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and hopefully this would mitigate it

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another another reason

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is that i'd like to invest in equipment

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so for example

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i was lent this green screen yesterday

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by

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someone who's been a fan of the channel

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for months and has been helping out with

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the discord his name is phil

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chertook phil thank you thank you so

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much phil

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the reason for this green screen as an

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aside for those interested is that this

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door behind me is a washroom door i rent

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a one bedroom

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one washroom place now my wife

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is we're in lockdown if this is ontario

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so you can't

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actually leave your home and for some

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jobs you can't actually perform them

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so my wife is home much of the time and

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when i'm conducting these podcasts i

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tell her

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you have to stay in the room you can't

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even get food to eat

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get your water if you're gonna get food

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just bring the food into the room

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and if you have to use the washroom take

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these empty cups

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please because i can't have you come in

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the background distract me

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potentially interrupt the guests when

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they're right at their most profound

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point

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and as well as she may be embarrassed

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because she's wearing pajamas and so on

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whatever one time i was

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interviewing bernardo castro up and it

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was supposed to be an hour to two hours

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long i told her at most it's gonna be

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two and a half hours just stay here babe

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i love you

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and then it ended up going for five

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hours long now that was great for me

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great for you great for bernardo we

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didn't even notice the time went by you

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can watch that interview it's one of the

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best on the channel

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but then i remember reeling from that

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just shivering with the excitement and

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and elated going into the bedroom

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opening the door

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the huge smile on my face and my wife

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livid

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seriously babe five hours she's holding

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filled multiple filled cups okay i would

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like

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that for that to not happen so i was

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speaking to phil shertok again

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someone who runs the discordance helping

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out with this channel he said kurt just

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get a green screen i can lend you one

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you put it here

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you make it look like it's this

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background and then she can come and go

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i would like to invest in equipment and

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gear

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like that so that's another reason why

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i'm hoping for this patreon to grow

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lastly these podcasts take days and days

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and days to prep for sometimes weeks ian

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mcgill chris

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took weeks thomas campbell took took

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months actually now i have stephen

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wolfram coming up

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and i have chris langan coming up who is

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the person with the highest iq in

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america at least reportedly so

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either way stephen wolfram has a theory

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of physics that apparently derives the

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standard model

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and some non-standard general

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relativistic models

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which means i have to become familiar

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with those before i become familiar with

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stevens and that's taking some time

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chris langan has a cognitive theoretic

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model of the universe

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and that's well it's abnormal and so it

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it's difficult to wrap one's head around

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and that takes quite a bit of time

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chomsky is coming up at the end of the

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month that's actually june 1st rupert

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spiro is coming up and apparently his

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philosophy

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is so drastically different than the way

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that i think i'm

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i'm extremely analytical and he abjurs

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the analytical

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so i don't know how long that will take

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for me to wrap my head around

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and at the same time i always have an

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icky slimy feeling

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about promoting myself or even asking

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people to go to the patreon

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patreon patreon and support you can even

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see it right there where i'm stumbling

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over my words saying it

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however some of the patreons patrons

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already told me

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kurt stop feeling like

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you're selling something stop feeling

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bad about it just tell people about it

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i wouldn't have known about it if you

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didn't advertise it once and

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i'm happy to support so please let other

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people know and so this is me doing that

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the patreon and the paypal are huge

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huge boons that help me consistently

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produce podcasts of extremely

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high quality with extremely high

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technical depth

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which is different than much of the

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other podcasts that are out there which

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at least in my opinion are watered down

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now there's nothing wrong with being

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watered down especially if you want to

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get an overview of someone's

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theories i watch them plenty but

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paradoxically for me the more watered

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down it is the more dry it is and if you

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look at the comments

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on this channel many of you agree and it

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seems to indicate there's a huge craving

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there's a huge huge craving for people

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interested in the rec and

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inner workings of a theory and this

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isn't provided

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almost anywhere else please go to

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patreon.com

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kerchaimongo if you'd like to support

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thank you so much and enjoy this podcast

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judging by some of the comments already

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at least one commenter said that it's

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like the 2021 version of

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sam harris versus jordan peterson that

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is to say it's bernardo castro and john

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verveiki

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links to both of their work are in the

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description

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thank you sometimes there's a time lag

290
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and you want to interject but you're not

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sure if it's going to sound rude

292
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just raise your finger like this the

293
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other person will see and i may do this

294
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you may do this

295
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if you feel like you're looking rude

296
00:09:00,870 --> 00:08:59,279
don't worry it'll look rude for the live

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stream at the most but i'll take it out

298
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when i finally edit it together i'll

299
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just put the other person's face you

300
00:09:09,670 --> 00:09:08,070
hopefully hopefully we cannot be rude

301
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that'd be good

302
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yeah i don't know i mean i have to say i

303
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ha suffer from high blood pressure so i

304
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take diuretics

305
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also from my meniere's i don't know if i

306
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can go like three hours without going to

307
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the bathroom i'll try

308
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i haven't had much to drink this morning

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but i want to forewarn i can't guarantee

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that because

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you mean go to the water you can have a

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cup in front of you too if you need to

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[Laughter]

314
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while someone else is speaking the

315
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trickle may then

316
00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:43,440
turn the camera to you the jig is up

317
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this one is an experimental podcast

318
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because

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usually what i do is i do a prodigious

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amount of research beforehand

321
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and ask guests precise questions but

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this time i thought

323
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how about i get two people on and have

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them get to know one another which

325
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usually happens behind

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the closed doors of academia and have

327
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these two titans the

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people who are at the top of their

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respective academic game speak to one

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another

331
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converse jovially instead of trying to

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critique and debate

333
00:10:20,310 --> 00:10:18,000
and and watch them get to know

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get familiar with one another's ideas

335
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that's the whole point of this

336
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i'm taking much more of a backseat than

337
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i usually

338
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would take and i'm just facilitating

339
00:10:33,430 --> 00:10:30,640
questions between you both

340
00:10:34,069 --> 00:10:33,440
how does that sound okay let's see how

341
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:34,079
it goes

342
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i'm kurt jaymungal a filmmaker and i run

343
00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:39,600
the theories of everything podcast

344
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i have a background in math and physics

345
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which is why i'm interested in

346
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theories of everything and theories of

347
00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:46,000
everything

348
00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:47,920
to me don't just include grand

349
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unification but also

350
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:52,560
philosophical world views which is why

351
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jonathan and bernardo

352
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:56,399
are here jonathan the great john

353
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vervicky is a professor of the

354
00:11:01,430 --> 00:10:59,360
university of toronto

355
00:11:02,949 --> 00:11:01,440
in cognitive science and i believe he's

356
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:02,959
the only professor

357
00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:05,120
that has a cognitive science course on

358
00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:07,600
buddhism mindfulness and wisdom

359
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:10,640
in 2012 he gained

360
00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:12,880
an award called the ranjini gauche

361
00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:14,160
excellence in teaching

362
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:16,240
award and there are many more accolades

363
00:11:20,310 --> 00:11:17,200
i can say for

364
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:20,320
john but i'll save that because he's a

365
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:21,519
towering figure and that would take

366
00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:23,760
quite some time bernardo castro has a

367
00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:25,440
phd in both computer science and

368
00:11:28,310 --> 00:11:26,320
philosophy

369
00:11:30,389 --> 00:11:28,320
the latter of which is what we're

370
00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:30,399
interested in today

371
00:11:34,949 --> 00:11:32,959
his work leads the modern renaissance of

372
00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:34,959
metaphysical idealism the notion that

373
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reality is essentially

374
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:39,519
mental i respect both of you greatly and

375
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:41,279
i want you to know that

376
00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:43,200
both the bernardo interview on the

377
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:44,640
channel the theories of everything

378
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:45,839
channel and

379
00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:47,360
john your interview on the theories of

380
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,880
everything channel are some of

381
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:50,560
the highest rated if not the highest

382
00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:52,240
rated of all the interviews and i still

383
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,839
get comments to this day saying that

384
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,920
it's not only the best on the channel

385
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:57,680
but maybe the best interviews with you

386
00:12:00,870 --> 00:11:58,480
so i

387
00:12:01,670 --> 00:12:00,880
am so honored that you gave your time

388
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:01,680
and that

389
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:03,680
that happened thank you so much thank

390
00:12:08,949 --> 00:12:05,279
you fantastic to know that

391
00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:08,959
resonating so well it's great to be here

392
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:10,240
kurt it's been a while and it's good to

393
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,760
see you again it's a pleasure to meet

394
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:13,440
you bernardo

395
00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:16,800
my pleasure john okay

396
00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:18,959
just so you know the audience for this

397
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:20,240
podcast is generally

398
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:22,240
colossally clever so if you have to use

399
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:24,000
abstruce terminology that you don't

400
00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:24,399
think

401
00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:26,160
ordinarily people would understand it's

402
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:27,760
okay speak as if you're behind the

403
00:12:32,069 --> 00:12:29,600
academic doors this is what

404
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:32,079
this is it's an experiment and if you

405
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:33,760
have to make logical deductive steps

406
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:35,519
quickly go ahead do so it doesn't matter

407
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:37,279
people can rewind people can pause i'll

408
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:38,720
start with philosophically how would you

409
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,440
all

410
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:41,120
john how would you describe yourself so

411
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:42,720
there's obviously isms like you're a

412
00:12:44,949 --> 00:12:43,519
realist you're

413
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,959
a logical positivist you're a

414
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:46,800
materialist whatever it may be why don't

415
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:47,120
you

416
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:49,040
give the audience an idea as to where

417
00:12:53,829 --> 00:12:50,560
you're coming from and then bernardo

418
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:53,839
you'll do the same um

419
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,920
sure uh if you want my metaphysical

420
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,360
stance i don't know if that's the most

421
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:59,040
important aspect of my work but

422
00:13:02,949 --> 00:13:00,800
maybe that's the arena we're playing in

423
00:13:04,470 --> 00:13:02,959
right now um

424
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:04,480
so i would describe myself as a

425
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:06,320
naturalist and to try and make that

426
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:06,880
clear

427
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:09,519
i reject uh the term that people often

428
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:11,120
apply to me materialist

429
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:13,120
i don't think that all of reality is

430
00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:14,560
just matter

431
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:17,040
i don't i don't know um i don't know if

432
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:18,480
i know anybody who actually takes that

433
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:20,720
stance

434
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:23,200
and so you know like most physicalists i

435
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:24,800
think that we have to talk about

436
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:27,519
other real entities like time space

437
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:28,720
cause

438
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:31,040
um structural functional organizations

439
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:32,800
of things information etc and i think

440
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:34,639
they're all good arguments for that

441
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:36,959
and then i'm not i'm a non-reductive

442
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:38,959
physicalist which means

443
00:13:45,189 --> 00:13:42,800
um i think there's genuine emergence um

444
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:45,199
i actually um sort of sort of

445
00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:46,560
heretically i think there's also

446
00:13:51,189 --> 00:13:48,560
emanation as well as emergence

447
00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:51,199
but that we could get into that later

448
00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:51,600
and

449
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:53,440
what i mean by that is i don't think

450
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:54,720
it's fair to say

451
00:13:58,470 --> 00:13:56,240
or correct to say that the only thing

452
00:14:00,389 --> 00:13:58,480
that really exists is the very bottom

453
00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:00,399
level of our ontology maybe

454
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:01,920
quantum probability waves or something

455
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:03,519
like that i think that

456
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:06,320
this level at which we do science must

457
00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:08,000
really exist for us

458
00:14:11,829 --> 00:14:10,320
for science to really exist and for us

459
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:11,839
to draw the conclusions about the

460
00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:14,000
reference of science such as

461
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:16,320
conclusions about the quantum domain or

462
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:17,519
the or or the

463
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:20,160
the relativistic domain so that's why i

464
00:14:24,949 --> 00:14:21,600
call myself a naturalist

465
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:24,959
so a naturalist says that the ontology

466
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,480
is going to be consistent

467
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:29,279
with the natural sciences uh biology

468
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:30,800
chemistry

469
00:14:36,069 --> 00:14:34,399
physics um and perhaps uh hopefully down

470
00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:36,079
the road cognitive science

471
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:37,839
but it is not going to be reducible to

472
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:39,360
them and so it's a

473
00:14:46,949 --> 00:14:43,600
it's a it's a quite uh layered and rich

474
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:46,959
ontology and then within it um

475
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:48,800
i happen to hold a position called deep

476
00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:50,079
continuity

477
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:52,639
which means this is from work by

478
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:54,880
francisco varela evan thompson

479
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,880
a lot of people in what's called 4e

480
00:14:59,670 --> 00:14:58,240
cognitive science or third wave

481
00:15:01,269 --> 00:14:59,680
cognitive science

482
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,279
there's a deep continuity between the

483
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:03,120
principles that regulate

484
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:06,720
and generate cognition and consciousness

485
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:08,800
and those that regulate and generate

486
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:10,079
living systems

487
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:13,440
so i i take it after a lot of argument

488
00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:15,760
that in order to be a cognitive thing

489
00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:17,920
you have to also be a living thing

490
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:20,320
um and then and then there is also deep

491
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,000
continuity between living things that

492
00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:24,160
are auto-poetic self-making

493
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:26,560
and self-organizing systems like

494
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:28,160
tornadoes and

495
00:15:31,749 --> 00:15:30,240
eddies within streams and things like

496
00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:31,759
that um

497
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:34,639
so it's a naturalism with deep

498
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:35,680
continuity

499
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:39,199
is um for me

500
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,639
the ontology that i think um uh

501
00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:45,040
i find was plausible convergent and the

502
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:46,959
one that best helps to explain how

503
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:48,880
science itself is possible

504
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:50,800
um and so it's a it's also an ontology

505
00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:52,720
that's deeply influenced

506
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:54,959
by neoplatonism because neoplatonism

507
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:56,079
tends to

508
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:59,040
emphasize building your ontology off the

509
00:16:02,230 --> 00:16:00,720
the prima facie

510
00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:02,240
datum from which you try to build your

511
00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:04,000
ontology is intelligibility

512
00:16:07,749 --> 00:16:06,639
uh the existence of intelligibility uh

513
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:07,759
which is

514
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:10,959
presupposed by science so i think that's

515
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:11,360
it

516
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:13,199
i hope that was not too course of a

517
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:15,040
nutshell but that's where

518
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,120
that's where i come from bernardo

519
00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:21,360
i think like john i'm a naturalist as

520
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:23,120
well

521
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:25,360
whatever is not part of nature even if

522
00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:26,320
it exists

523
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:28,720
it escapes so much the realm of what is

524
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:29,680
relevant

525
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:32,000
that may not be interesting to look at

526
00:16:36,069 --> 00:16:32,720
it

527
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:36,079
unlike john i am a reductionist

528
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:38,160
i'm probably an extreme reductionist and

529
00:16:42,710 --> 00:16:39,920
the reason i am that

530
00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:42,720
is i think there are very fundamental

531
00:16:47,189 --> 00:16:44,639
even insoluble problems

532
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:47,199
that you face if your reduction base has

533
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:48,959
more than one thing

534
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,959
because then you get you run into the

535
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:52,720
interaction problem

536
00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:56,240
you have issues of parsimony that you

537
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,240
really need to postulate

538
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:00,800
many things in your reduction base and

539
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:02,720
large reduction bases

540
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:04,799
they don't explain anything they just

541
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:07,199
avoid the need for explanation by just

542
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,160
pronouncing

543
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:11,039
a number of things to be primitives uh

544
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:13,120
dispensing with explanation

545
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:16,240
so i am a reductionist even though my re

546
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:18,480
the one element in my reduction base is

547
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:20,000
different from

548
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:22,079
the elements in the reduction base of

549
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:24,160
mainstream materialism today

550
00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:26,240
uh today i think the mainstream view

551
00:17:29,669 --> 00:17:27,199
would be that

552
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:29,679
all quantum fields are part of the

553
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:31,039
reduction base

554
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:34,960
there is yet no unified feud theory so

555
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:37,280
we have a reduction base with multiple

556
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:42,160
feuds now i i don't go for that

557
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:45,520
i am critical of strong emergence

558
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:49,679
i think what we might call

559
00:17:54,470 --> 00:17:51,919
a weak emergence what what david

560
00:17:57,909 --> 00:17:54,480
chalmers calls a weak emergence

561
00:18:01,029 --> 00:17:57,919
obviously exists sand dunes emerge

562
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,039
out of sand grains and wind

563
00:18:05,029 --> 00:18:03,600
so we know that these things happen ice

564
00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:05,039
crystals emerge

565
00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:09,200
out of water and temperature variations

566
00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:11,840
but strong emergence as an explanation

567
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:12,880
for instance for

568
00:18:16,870 --> 00:18:16,160
how how phenomenal consciousness could

569
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:16,880
arise

570
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:19,919
from arrangements of matter

571
00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:23,039
i think at best it's an appeal

572
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:26,640
to a complete unknown and and probably

573
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:28,000
it's a flat-out appeal

574
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:30,640
to magic it's a way to put a label on

575
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:31,520
something that

576
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:34,559
is actually incoherent uh we label it a

577
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:35,120
problem

578
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:37,120
and we say well one day we will explain

579
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,480
it but

580
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:40,799
we're just insisting on a path that is

581
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:42,000
leading nowhere

582
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:45,120
so to summarize it all my position is

583
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:48,000
what i like to call analytic idealism

584
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:49,919
it's an idealist philosophy that

585
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:51,760
postulates that at the bottom level of

586
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:53,120
nature there is only mind

587
00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:55,760
not your mind alone not my mind alone

588
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:57,600
but only mind stuff

589
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:00,720
at the bottom of nature

590
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:03,360
and it's a mix between objective and

591
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:04,960
subjective idealism

592
00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:07,200
i can go more into that to explain it

593
00:19:11,669 --> 00:19:08,840
more later

594
00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:11,679
um yeah that i think that

595
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:14,799
that summarizes it john what occurs to

596
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:16,400
you when you hear that

597
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:19,520
what questions pop up um

598
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:23,520
i guess the the the maybe there's a

599
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:25,039
question around the notion of strong

600
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,559
emergence

601
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:28,640
i'm actually proposing it depends what

602
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:30,000
you mean by strong emergence

603
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:31,440
i mean strong emergence is the claim

604
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:32,720
that there's not going to be any

605
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:34,320
explanatory relationship

606
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:36,320
between the levels i take it that what

607
00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:38,480
we we say happens in weak emergence like

608
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:39,919
how water emerges out of

609
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,760
hydrogen and oxygen is because we have

610
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:43,200
have some account

611
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:46,320
um and so and then the idea is you know

612
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:47,840
differences of degree

613
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:50,240
if us if there are enough of them become

614
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:53,200
differences in kind um

615
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,880
because then you not only get water

616
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:56,720
emerging and then you get water

617
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,400
has a particular set of relationships to

618
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:00,559
organisms such that it's a nutrient

619
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:02,240
uh which and there's no such thing as a

620
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:03,760
nutrient in physics it

621
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:06,000
doesn't belong in the physics ontology

622
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:07,679
um things like that

623
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:10,240
and so i think the position that i'm

624
00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:11,600
arguing for is

625
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:14,159
you know is a form of what would

626
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:15,520
technically be called weak emergence

627
00:20:19,909 --> 00:20:16,799
because i do think there

628
00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:19,919
is emerging no pun intended an ongoing

629
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:21,120
explanation

630
00:20:27,029 --> 00:20:24,400
um so for example um

631
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:27,039
we used to have a position that looked

632
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:28,960
like strong emergence for life

633
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:32,640
vitalism most people in biology myself

634
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:35,039
included reject that because now we have

635
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:36,880
a very complicated

636
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:39,440
but nevertheless i think you could

637
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:40,159
rightly say

638
00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:42,720
version of weak emergence of life from

639
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:44,080
inorganic material

640
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:47,039
and so and i think we're getting a

641
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:48,559
similar thing happening

642
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:51,840
uh with the weak emergence of

643
00:20:56,789 --> 00:20:52,960
intelligence

644
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:56,799
out of non-intelligent things um and so

645
00:21:01,830 --> 00:20:59,919
i think given the

646
00:21:04,149 --> 00:21:01,840
explanatory base provided by living

647
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:04,159
things that weekly emerge

648
00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:05,600
and intelligent things that weekly

649
00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:08,080
emerge we have pretty much we need what

650
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:09,039
we need in order to

651
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:11,919
generate a lot of the theoretical

652
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:14,080
explanation for a lot of consciousness

653
00:21:19,909 --> 00:21:17,280
which is where this um

654
00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:19,919
hangs in namely that i think that we

655
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:20,640
many people

656
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,919
are already coming converging this is

657
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:25,600
some of the stuff i worked on

658
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:27,520
towards a weak emergence explanation of

659
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,520
the function of consciousness

660
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:31,440
that's becoming less problematic that

661
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:33,760
was even somewhat excluded in trauma's

662
00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:35,760
distinction around the heart problem and

663
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:37,919
i think as we get a richer and richer

664
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:39,600
account of the functionality

665
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:41,200
we will get a richer and richer account

666
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:42,480
of the nature of consciousness the

667
00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:44,159
phenomenal aspects of it

668
00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:47,280
um so i i think i would ultimately say

669
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:48,640
that i'm not defending a strong

670
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:50,720
convergence position i'm defending a

671
00:21:54,149 --> 00:21:51,520
very

672
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:54,159
um complicated but never the

673
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:56,240
complication isn't the issue here

674
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:58,080
um the issue is whether or not i'm

675
00:22:01,909 --> 00:22:00,320
advocating for a non-explore

676
00:22:04,549 --> 00:22:01,919
non-explanatory relationship in the

677
00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:04,559
emergence um

678
00:22:08,310 --> 00:22:06,880
now is there a degree to which this is

679
00:22:09,909 --> 00:22:08,320
promissory

680
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:09,919
well everybody's position right now is

681
00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:12,240
promissory because the only way we

682
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,000
wouldn't have a promissory position

683
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:16,640
is if we had our completed science which

684
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:17,120
so

685
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:18,640
what we have to ask about is is it a

686
00:22:23,029 --> 00:22:20,559
plausible promise and of course

687
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:23,039
well we might uh likely disagree on that

688
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:24,080
uh but

689
00:22:28,149 --> 00:22:26,480
um that's that that would be in my

690
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:28,159
initial response

691
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:30,240
john you have an articulated notion of

692
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:31,760
what it means to be plausible do you

693
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,919
mind explaining that first

694
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:35,520
yeah so this is some of the work i do

695
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:37,200
outside of these thorny issues of

696
00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:37,919
ontology

697
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:41,039
um because i'm very interested in

698
00:22:45,909 --> 00:22:44,880
um trying to uh under well to understand

699
00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:45,919
understanding

700
00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:49,039
knowledge and

701
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:50,880
one of the differences is people

702
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:52,240
generally talk about

703
00:22:56,390 --> 00:22:53,600
knowledge in terms of evidence that

704
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:56,400
justifies where in terms

705
00:23:01,750 --> 00:22:59,440
where understanding is uh relevance uh

706
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:01,760
that basically signifies uh and there's

707
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:03,760
an important difference there and so

708
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:06,960
one way of understanding uh this is

709
00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:10,799
uh to that when people have a particular

710
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:12,240
kind of understanding they give it a

711
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:13,440
normative status when they say

712
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:15,039
something's reasonable

713
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:16,960
or makes good sense or they'll even say

714
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:18,880
it's plausible and they don't mean it as

715
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:20,320
a synonym for probable

716
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,840
it just means it may oh it's reasonable

717
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:23,760
that makes good sense that you know

718
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:25,120
and so when you take a look at what's

719
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:27,120
going on there there seems to be a bunch

720
00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:28,480
of factors

721
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:30,000
this is based on a lot of other people's

722
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:32,320
work on plausibility and i won't try and

723
00:23:37,510 --> 00:23:34,080
cite a lot of people here

724
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:37,520
for brevity's sake uh one is that we

725
00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:40,159
uh with the idea that we want a lot of

726
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:40,880
independent

727
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:44,240
lines of converging evidence um

728
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:45,919
the idea being here this gives what

729
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:47,919
russia calls trustworthiness

730
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:50,000
if my particular theoretical construct

731
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:51,440
comes out of independent lines of

732
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:52,799
argument and evidence

733
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,039
that reduces the chance that it was

734
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:57,440
produced by theoretical bias or

735
00:24:02,470 --> 00:23:59,760
empirical bias et cetera for example

736
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:02,480
that's why even infants

737
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:05,200
prefer information that is multi-sensory

738
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:05,679
so

739
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:07,440
they will they will give priority to

740
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:08,880
information that comes through

741
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:11,440
eyesight and hearing and touch then over

742
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:12,559
just eyesight

743
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:15,440
um you know ceteris paribus uh because

744
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:17,039
it's much more likely to be

745
00:24:21,909 --> 00:24:19,840
real than a subjective illusion for

746
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:21,919
example so that's trustworthiness

747
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:24,320
you want your construct to have some

748
00:24:27,669 --> 00:24:26,240
structural functional organization some

749
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:27,679
way in which it's structured

750
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:29,600
it's not just a list of features but a

751
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,880
way it has a structure

752
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,880
that indicates its function and then its

753
00:24:36,549 --> 00:24:34,799
function of course is explicable in

754
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:36,559
terms of its structure

755
00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:39,120
and then you want elegance you want that

756
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:41,039
that construct will map

757
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:44,080
into many new domains find problems

758
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:45,440
formulate problems that hasn't been

759
00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:46,640
found before

760
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:50,240
and uh make them potentially

761
00:24:54,549 --> 00:24:52,720
uh solvable so this is sort of elegance

762
00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:54,559
so you have convergence

763
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:56,799
into something like a cognitive optimal

764
00:24:59,830 --> 00:24:57,760
grip

765
00:25:01,990 --> 00:24:59,840
elegance out and then you want to

766
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:02,000
balance between them

767
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:04,080
so if you propose something that will

768
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:05,360
explain a lot of things and looks

769
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:06,159
elegant

770
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:07,919
but isn't very trustworthy well that's

771
00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:10,559
when something's far-fetched

772
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,760
you can have the opposite you can have

773
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:13,200
something that's very trustworthy but

774
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:15,440
has no elegance to it and that's trivial

775
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:16,799
and then you can do various kinds of

776
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:18,559
slips between them you can do

777
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:20,080
what then it calls a dpd where you

778
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:22,320
equivocate or you can do a martin bailey

779
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:23,200
thing

780
00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:24,880
so when i'm talking about plausibility

781
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:27,039
i'm talking about a

782
00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:30,320
a standard we have to use we can't

783
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:33,600
rely on because for example um i can't

784
00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:36,000
test all possible hypotheses

785
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:38,480
the number the logical number of those

786
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:40,159
is indefinitely large

787
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:41,760
so if i'm a scientist i have to select

788
00:25:45,669 --> 00:25:43,360
the plausible ones

789
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:45,679
and then when i'm testing it i have to

790
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:47,520
control for confounds do i control for

791
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:49,760
all possible alternative explanations

792
00:25:53,190 --> 00:25:51,039
no that's impossible that's

793
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:53,200
combinatorial explosive so i select the

794
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:54,799
plausible ones that i control for

795
00:25:58,230 --> 00:25:56,559
then i get my data and i have to drive

796
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:58,240
my interpretations from it

797
00:26:01,990 --> 00:26:00,159
do i derive all logically possible

798
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:02,000
implications no that's combinatorial

799
00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:02,880
explosive

800
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:05,039
so i have to i make use of the most

801
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:06,240
plausible

802
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:08,320
um implications so plausibility is

803
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:10,400
before during and after empirical

804
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:11,360
investigation

805
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,600
so it's irremovable now the thing about

806
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:14,799
it is it is

807
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:17,279
it's pragmatic it's feasible uh because

808
00:26:20,789 --> 00:26:18,159
what it does

809
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:20,799
is it just gives you the normativity of

810
00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:22,720
taking something seriously

811
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:24,080
we have that's not a sufficient

812
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:26,000
normativity for a knowledge claim

813
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:28,880
but it is a necessary normativity for

814
00:26:31,029 --> 00:26:29,360
getting

815
00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:31,039
your knowledge acquisition processes

816
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:37,029
bernardo i'm sure thoughts present

817
00:26:40,149 --> 00:26:38,880
themselves to you oh there's a lot to

818
00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:40,159
comment on

819
00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:43,520
um look i think um there is a heart

820
00:26:48,149 --> 00:26:46,400
of objectivity in our notion in the

821
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:48,159
concept of plausibility

822
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:50,720
and i think john has elaborated on it uh

823
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:52,320
very well

824
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:55,120
but in practice a lot of what we call

825
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:56,240
plausibility

826
00:27:01,990 --> 00:26:59,760
is a psychosocial phenomenon why because

827
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:02,000
the interpretation of data is is never

828
00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:02,880
neutral

829
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:04,720
i mean we know that from from thomas

830
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:06,000
kuhn that the

831
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:07,840
very interpretation of data is already

832
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:10,240
paradigm laden or theory

833
00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:12,240
laden if you look at the history of

834
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:14,240
science there was a point a couple of

835
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:16,000
hundred years ago in which floyd

836
00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:18,880
stone was perfectly plausible an

837
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:20,000
invisible elastic

838
00:27:24,149 --> 00:27:23,600
substance that connected shaft to an

839
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:24,159
ember

840
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:27,279
rod and accounted for what we today call

841
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:30,720
electrostatic attraction there was a

842
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:32,640
point in time in which newton's

843
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:35,440
gravitational force an invisible force

844
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:36,240
that

845
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:39,440
acted instantly and at a distance

846
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:41,840
between bodies celestial bodies was

847
00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:42,640
considered

848
00:27:47,669 --> 00:27:45,600
utterly implausible in fact in france it

849
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:47,679
took like 50 years for the french to

850
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:48,000
stop

851
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:51,039
laughing at newton

852
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:54,399
and then later on we figured that we can

853
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:56,240
laugh at newton again because there

854
00:28:00,789 --> 00:27:58,880
is no such invisible force it's the the

855
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:00,799
fabric of space-time that

856
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:03,279
bends and curves and accounts then for

857
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:05,919
what we call gravitation

858
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:07,760
so plausibility i think it's something

859
00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:09,440
we have to take with a grain of salt

860
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:11,320
because it is culturally

861
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:13,840
manufacturable and we have been

862
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:16,240
manufacturing plausibility

863
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:19,200
at the highest rate in history lately

864
00:28:23,590 --> 00:28:21,200
for instance we are very busy

865
00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:23,600
in the mainstream media manufacturing

866
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:24,640
floozability

867
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:27,520
for the outright incoherent notion that

868
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:28,320
you can

869
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:30,159
upload your consciousness into a

870
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:32,480
computer which betrays all kinds of

871
00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:33,840
misunderstandings of

872
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:37,039
about computers and about consciousness

873
00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:40,080
and neuroscience an outright ridiculous

874
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:41,039
idea

875
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:44,240
that now a lot of highly educated people

876
00:28:47,909 --> 00:28:45,440
with phds

877
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:47,919
consider plausible because our cultural

878
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:49,120
milieu

879
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,799
renders it to us as if it were

880
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,799
plausible and since knowledge is now so

881
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:56,640
broad that every single person can only

882
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:58,880
know a tiny bit of what there is to know

883
00:29:02,789 --> 00:29:00,799
we buy into it it's very difficult to

884
00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:02,799
have an overview of all the salient and

885
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:04,399
relevant aspects of knowledge

886
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:06,880
to pass judgment on that so i would be

887
00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:09,600
careful with plausibility in science

888
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:11,360
already but when it comes to

889
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:12,880
consciousness you know

890
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:15,600
it's not just science because science is

891
00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:17,679
a study of nature's behavior

892
00:29:21,430 --> 00:29:20,159
not a study of what nature is in and of

893
00:29:24,149 --> 00:29:21,440
itself

894
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,159
what nature is i would say is irrelevant

895
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:26,240
to science because science makes

896
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:28,320
predictions about how nature will behave

897
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:28,720
what

898
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:33,200
is the behavioral predictions of a

899
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:34,480
certain model

900
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:37,039
of nature's behavior and that's what

901
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:38,000
experiment

902
00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:41,760
in the form of a certain thing that

903
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:42,240
nature

904
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:45,600
does a certain behavior now of course

905
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,520
if you have a metaphysics a theory of

906
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:49,039
what nature is

907
00:29:52,789 --> 00:29:51,200
that makes itself predictions that are

908
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:52,799
contradicted by science then you have to

909
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:54,720
discard that metaphysics so science

910
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:57,120
informs philosophy or metaphysics

911
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:58,960
but it doesn't settle philosophical

912
00:30:01,830 --> 00:30:00,159
questions and when it comes to

913
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:01,840
consciousness i don't think it settles

914
00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:03,279
the question at all

915
00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:06,480
i think what's happening today is

916
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:09,520
we think that um strong emergence

917
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:11,919
is a plausible account for consciousness

918
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,559
because this notion has been culturally

919
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:16,799
manufactured it's not grounded in

920
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:19,279
objective reasoning or evidence

921
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:21,039
um because i think what happened at

922
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,559
first was that

923
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:24,640
scientists started from where we all

924
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:26,960
start from conscious experience

925
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:29,120
the experience of the world out there

926
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:31,279
the colors the melodies the flavors the

927
00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:32,159
scents

928
00:30:36,710 --> 00:30:34,559
that are around us and then they figured

929
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:36,720
out that it was very useful

930
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:39,279
to model those qualities conscious

931
00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:40,880
qualities of the world

932
00:30:44,549 --> 00:30:43,520
with numbers which could then be tied up

933
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:44,559
in equations

934
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:46,640
and and that was very useful to describe

935
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:47,760
the world so

936
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:49,919
carrying a heavy piece of luggage is

937
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:50,960
described with

938
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:53,520
50 kilos and holding a feather is

939
00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:54,399
described with

940
00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:56,960
50 grams and now you have a quantitative

941
00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:58,720
way of dealing with these

942
00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:00,720
relative differences and and making

943
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:02,480
predictive models in the form of

944
00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:04,080
equations that relate all these

945
00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:05,919
quantities together these are all

946
00:31:10,149 --> 00:31:07,600
descriptions of the qualities

947
00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:10,159
but at some point something very strange

948
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:12,080
happened around the time of the cards

949
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:13,840
and the conflict between science and the

950
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:15,519
church and that attempt to find space

951
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:16,559
for both

952
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:18,240
without the church having to burn

953
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:20,240
scientists alive

954
00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:21,840
the question was sort of settled by

955
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:23,600
saying okay there is

956
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:26,880
uh mind the mental sphere

957
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:28,080
that's for the church and then the

958
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:29,600
church was very happy because from the

959
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:30,240
church

960
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:33,440
existed right

961
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:35,840
and then we said and the descriptions

962
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,480
now

963
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:38,559
are not only a description of the

964
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:39,919
contents of mind

965
00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:42,000
the descriptions exist in and of

966
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:44,240
themselves and moreover they precede

967
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:46,559
the contents of mind and that's when the

968
00:31:51,509 --> 00:31:47,840
conceptual idea of

969
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:51,519
matter arose we said that those kilos

970
00:31:58,230 --> 00:31:54,720
hertz you know length

971
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:58,240
weight or spin momentum electric charge

972
00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:01,200
mass amplitude frequency we said those

973
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:01,679
things

974
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:07,120
have standalone existence and they

975
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:10,720
somehow generate the world of experience

976
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:13,519
the colors we see the scents with you

977
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:17,360
it's like trying to pull the terror

978
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:19,360
the territory out of the map because you

979
00:32:23,110 --> 00:32:20,880
know we have the territory

980
00:32:24,389 --> 00:32:23,120
we described it we created the map and

981
00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:24,399
then we said the map

982
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:27,200
precedes the territory it exists before

983
00:32:30,149 --> 00:32:28,080
the territory

984
00:32:32,549 --> 00:32:30,159
the description exists before the thing

985
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:32,559
described first incoherent move

986
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:34,960
second incoherent move somehow

987
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:36,399
consciousness the qualities of

988
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:37,360
experience

989
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:40,480
arise out of that it's like pulling the

990
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:41,279
territory

991
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,360
out of the map and then we face an

992
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:45,360
insoluble problem the heart problem of

993
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:46,320
consciousness

994
00:32:50,549 --> 00:32:48,799
but because we've manufactured now a

995
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:50,559
century and a half

996
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:53,039
of plausibility for this idea that

997
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:55,200
matter precedes consciousness

998
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:57,200
we instead of realizing that the heart

999
00:33:00,310 --> 00:32:58,640
problem of consciousness is not a

1000
00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:00,320
problem at all it's a reduction to

1001
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,480
absurdity of the materialist postulates

1002
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:04,000
it's just incoherent

1003
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:06,320
the message is backtrack try another

1004
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:07,840
another path because this one goes

1005
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:08,559
nowhere

1006
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:10,640
instead of admitting that we don't throw

1007
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:12,240
away a century and a half of

1008
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:13,919
manufactured plausibility

1009
00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:16,320
we label it a problem and we say one day

1010
00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:18,159
we will solve it and we call it strong

1011
00:33:21,029 --> 00:33:20,159
emergency or whatever one day we will

1012
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:21,039
account

1013
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:24,399
for it in order to

1014
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:27,440
sort of preserve what we've built

1015
00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:30,480
so far okay john

1016
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:32,720
first do you mind recapitulating what

1017
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:34,720
your understanding of what bernardo said

1018
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:38,080
is and then seeing if it matches

1019
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:40,000
um i think there's a difference between

1020
00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:42,320
how i was trying to use plausibility and

1021
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,720
he is i'm not equating plausibility to

1022
00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:46,320
every claim to plausibility

1023
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:48,240
any more than i would clay uh you know

1024
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:51,360
equate the claim to validity to validity

1025
00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:53,360
many people claim things are plausible

1026
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:54,720
for reasons that bernardo

1027
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:56,399
rightly pointed out we have a particular

1028
00:34:01,750 --> 00:33:59,120
paradigm but i would point out that what

1029
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:01,760
he's offering to challenge that is a

1030
00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:03,279
plausibility argument

1031
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:04,840
he can't make it one of deductive

1032
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,440
certainty uh we sort of given up on the

1033
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:09,040
idea that we can produce

1034
00:34:12,629 --> 00:34:10,800
a deductively certain metaphysics at

1035
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,639
least as far as i can tell

1036
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:14,720
um and so he's doing what he's doing is

1037
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:15,760
presenting any

1038
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:17,599
and he's good at it i'm not denying that

1039
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:19,119
he's good at presenting something that's

1040
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:21,200
very reasonable he draws independent

1041
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:22,240
lines of argument and

1042
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:24,000
independent lines of evidence together

1043
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:25,679
so i'm talking about plausibility in the

1044
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:27,919
normative sense i'm not talking about it

1045
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:29,760
and what's simply what people claim and

1046
00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:31,200
what i'm claiming is in that normative

1047
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:32,720
sense that's ultimately what we have

1048
00:34:35,829 --> 00:34:33,200
this is

1049
00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:35,839
sort of a pragmatist stance um and the

1050
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:36,320
fact

1051
00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:38,960
that and he's invoking it lawden's you

1052
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:39,839
know

1053
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:41,919
pessimistic history of science right

1054
00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:44,000
shows that most of our theories turn out

1055
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:46,240
to be false so it couldn't have been

1056
00:34:49,349 --> 00:34:48,399
truth that was guiding us it had to be

1057
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:49,359
something like

1058
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:51,040
plausibility and probability that were

1059
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,480
guiding us and that's what

1060
00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:54,879
i think we should we should sort of say

1061
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:56,159
we're doing

1062
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:57,599
um now that doesn't mean that i don't

1063
00:35:00,550 --> 00:34:59,280
think he's not offering a plausible

1064
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:00,560
argument i'm not saying that

1065
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:04,480
i'm so i i understand that we should

1066
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:07,680
periodically step back and criticize

1067
00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:11,839
our paradigms um but i would point out

1068
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:13,680
to him that that means there's something

1069
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,240
we appeal to above and beyond

1070
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:18,480
our paradigmatic standards in order to

1071
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:19,920
make such challenges

1072
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:22,320
and hopefully get them understood and

1073
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:23,119
accepted

1074
00:35:27,030 --> 00:35:26,160
i i reject i don't know if he does too i

1075
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,040
reject sort of

1076
00:35:30,069 --> 00:35:29,280
a pure cunying response that is just

1077
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:30,079
happenstance

1078
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:32,400
and historical circumstance why you know

1079
00:35:35,349 --> 00:35:34,240
people adopt new positions i do think

1080
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:35,359
they do something

1081
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:38,000
that is trans-paradigmatic um but i

1082
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:40,079
don't think it's cartesian certainty

1083
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:41,359
because i've never been convinced that

1084
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:43,200
such a thing exists so that's what i'm

1085
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:44,480
trying to invoke when i'm invoking

1086
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:45,440
plausibility

1087
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:48,560
um i think and i think metaphysics and

1088
00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:50,560
i think even philosophy at large is the

1089
00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:52,000
art of disciplined

1090
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:54,240
and you know and justifiable

1091
00:36:00,069 --> 00:35:57,040
plausibility something like that

1092
00:36:01,670 --> 00:36:00,079
so there uh that that's that um now

1093
00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:01,680
um i don't know what to do about some of

1094
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:03,200
the historical because bernard said a

1095
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:03,920
lot

1096
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:07,359
um i happen to think that the

1097
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:09,280
the the point he's pointing to happens a

1098
00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:11,119
lot earlier i think it happens around

1099
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:12,160
scottish

1100
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:15,280
yes yes from now on from this point

1101
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:16,480
forward i'm going to take

1102
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:18,400
oh wait wait wait wait did you see it

1103
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:20,079
i'm i'm very curious about

1104
00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:21,680
your point about scottish i would like

1105
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:23,119
to to continue to hear

1106
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:24,880
you're bringing that back to the what

1107
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:27,680
10th century ninth century no no no no

1108
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:28,720
no scotus

1109
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:31,200
uh is post aquinas so we're talking like

1110
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:32,800
the 13th 14th century we're talking

1111
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:34,560
about status and akam

1112
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:37,760
that's where i think the change is made

1113
00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:40,880
because what happens with scotus is you

1114
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:42,960
have the idea of the universe

1115
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:44,800
the being is univocal that whenever we

1116
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:46,240
say being we're saying this

1117
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:48,720
it's the same for everything and that

1118
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:49,440
sort of

1119
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:51,920
demolishes platonic realism uh well

1120
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:54,160
demolishes if you think scotus is right

1121
00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:57,280
and then occam's nominalism uh uh uh

1122
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:59,359
brings out the idea that there aren't

1123
00:37:03,990 --> 00:37:02,000
any actual structures in reality

1124
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:04,000
uh uh because all that really exists are

1125
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,160
bear particulars bare individuals

1126
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:08,880
and i think that's what severs uh the

1127
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:09,359
idea

1128
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:12,560
that there is something it destroys the

1129
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:12,960
con

1130
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:16,320
something identical uh

1131
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:18,960
in being between between the knower and

1132
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:19,920
the knowing

1133
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:22,079
so uh you know the the the idea is when

1134
00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:23,119
i know something

1135
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:25,599
in the older theory that there is some

1136
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:26,720
shared structural functional

1137
00:37:30,630 --> 00:37:28,720
organization in my mind

1138
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:30,640
and the thing that is constitutive of

1139
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:32,720
the reality of the thing and so

1140
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:35,280
there is a con and i think it's with

1141
00:37:38,069 --> 00:37:36,160
scotus

1142
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:38,079
and with arkham and then you get the

1143
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:40,560
idea of knowledge not as a conforming to

1144
00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:41,520
reality

1145
00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:43,520
but as coherence of propositions held

1146
00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:45,040
somewhere inside

1147
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:47,680
and i think that starts the severing in

1148
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:49,440
an important way and so i think

1149
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:52,560
the important move is you know

1150
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:55,920
a shift out of what i think

1151
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:57,839
i think is plausible to say you know

1152
00:38:02,069 --> 00:37:59,760
ancient realism

1153
00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:02,079
ancient philosophy right up until and

1154
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:03,839
including aquinas is ultimately

1155
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:04,640
realistic

1156
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:07,280
in its notion um and i think the

1157
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:08,880
severing from realism

1158
00:38:13,349 --> 00:38:12,000
precedes the emergence of matter as a

1159
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:13,359
substantial thing

1160
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,960
um and so i i that's where i would start

1161
00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:18,560
to talk about uh

1162
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:21,920
where the main issues are um

1163
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:23,119
now i think what you're talking about

1164
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:25,440
does happen with with descartes but

1165
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:28,480
it's also prefigured and made possible

1166
00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:30,880
uh by you know the ideas of individual

1167
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:32,960
conscience uh with luther and things

1168
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:33,760
like that

1169
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:36,560
separate and give a kind of internal

1170
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:37,680
authority

1171
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:40,560
uh separate from you know demands placed

1172
00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:42,000
on you by an external authority whether

1173
00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:43,040
that's the

1174
00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:46,160
i think there's a

1175
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:48,320
there's a sequence of stages that unfold

1176
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:50,240
and i think that

1177
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:52,240
and i think the issue about

1178
00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:54,160
consciousness is down the road

1179
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:56,960
uh downstream from these earlier uh sort

1180
00:39:00,950 --> 00:38:58,400
of decisions about

1181
00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:00,960
well realism versus versus something

1182
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:01,599
like

1183
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:04,720
um uh i don't know what to call it

1184
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:06,960
initially but it you know because it's

1185
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,000
normalism

1186
00:39:11,109 --> 00:39:10,320
uh which is a minimalized realism and

1187
00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:11,119
then

1188
00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:14,320
scotus

1189
00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:16,240
because all the all the idea of real

1190
00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:18,000
differences in being

1191
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:21,520
disappear um and so and that and the

1192
00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:24,960
and the and the irony of that is

1193
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:28,000
um if you

1194
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:29,920
if you posit any kind of reductionism

1195
00:39:32,710 --> 00:39:31,680
you are actually invoking levels of

1196
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:32,720
being again

1197
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:35,119
um and saying things like there are more

1198
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,800
real levels than other levels

1199
00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:38,720
which actually undermines the scottish

1200
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:40,640
position that started the whole

1201
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:41,599
transition

1202
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:43,200
in a powerful way so we're actually in a

1203
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:44,640
really i think

1204
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:46,560
within this paradigm if you'll allow me

1205
00:39:49,109 --> 00:39:48,320
we're actually in a kind of incoherent

1206
00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:49,119
place

1207
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:51,680
where we want to say we want to we we're

1208
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:53,440
holding to a view that came out of the

1209
00:39:57,349 --> 00:39:54,160
idea

1210
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:57,359
that there there's no real differences

1211
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:00,480
in levels of being but are now we are we

1212
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:02,400
are moving towards positions

1213
00:40:05,589 --> 00:40:04,960
in which differences of being are taken

1214
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:05,599
to be

1215
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:07,599
sort of you know a plausible thing so

1216
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:09,359
people will regularly say things like

1217
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:12,000
well tables don't really exist and you

1218
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:12,720
know all this

1219
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:14,240
you know love doesn't really exist all

1220
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:15,760
that's at the bottom and so

1221
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:18,400
that's to invoke um a platonic

1222
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:19,200
distinction

1223
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:20,960
between levels of being and so we we're

1224
00:40:25,349 --> 00:40:23,280
actually in an incoherent place

1225
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:25,359
with respect to our notion of being i

1226
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:27,760
would argue right now

1227
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:30,079
okay when i said that i'm going to take

1228
00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:31,440
a back seat what i mean is

1229
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:33,359
no longer from this point forward john

1230
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:35,280
do you refer to bernardo as he because

1231
00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:36,560
that means you're talking to me about

1232
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:38,079
bernardo you just say you because now

1233
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:39,359
you're speaking to bernardo and

1234
00:40:43,589 --> 00:40:40,240
bernardo's same

1235
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:43,599
so now you say you so john so-and-so

1236
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:45,520
bernardo take it away and john if you

1237
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:47,520
need to interject you go ahead

1238
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:50,960
right john there are many points i think

1239
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,720
that we have in common based on what you

1240
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:54,000
just said i'm

1241
00:40:57,030 --> 00:40:55,839
trying to make a mental list of those

1242
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:57,040
points um

1243
00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:00,880
i'm not for total relativism either

1244
00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:04,000
i think there are good objective

1245
00:41:07,589 --> 00:41:04,720
epistemic

1246
00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:07,599
criteria and that we can follow in order

1247
00:41:11,589 --> 00:41:08,240
to have

1248
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:11,599
a higher degree of certainty or a

1249
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:14,000
lower degree of uncertainty about our

1250
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:15,119
postulates

1251
00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:19,040
and inferences i would go as far as to

1252
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:22,000
submit to you that um kuhn himself

1253
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,640
wasn't

1254
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:24,800
a relativist in the way he's often

1255
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:26,400
portrayed to be and he was very

1256
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:28,400
frustrated in fact for the fact that

1257
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:31,920
he was portrayed uh and that way

1258
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:35,520
yeah i refer you to an interview done uh

1259
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:38,160
with uh with the [\h__\h] by my friend john

1260
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:40,160
horgan from scientific american back in

1261
00:41:45,349 --> 00:41:42,240
96 i think um

1262
00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:45,359
one in the final years of of kun's life

1263
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:47,920
um another thing that that i think we

1264
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:49,599
have in common is that um

1265
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:51,839
i'm not postulates that we can have

1266
00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:53,680
inferential certainty here

1267
00:41:58,069 --> 00:41:57,200
um i don't think you know apes evolved

1268
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:58,079
on planet

1269
00:42:03,109 --> 00:42:00,720
planet earth uh in in a corner of a

1270
00:42:05,829 --> 00:42:03,119
typical galaxy somewhere in the universe

1271
00:42:06,230 --> 00:42:05,839
have the cognitive apparatus to capture

1272
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,240
with

1273
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:08,880
certainty this alien aspect of what's

1274
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:09,359
going on

1275
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:13,280
of course not reality is filtered

1276
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:14,880
through our cognition

1277
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:16,960
and our cognition has evolved to allow

1278
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:19,760
us to escape tigers and find fruit

1279
00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:22,960
and hunt bison that's basically what we

1280
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:24,720
evolved to do

1281
00:42:30,230 --> 00:42:28,000
even our symbolic thinking is what 30 50

1282
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:30,240
000 years old i mean to characterize

1283
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:31,520
this as the blink of an

1284
00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:33,680
e of a nine the history of the earth is

1285
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:35,599
to is to

1286
00:42:39,589 --> 00:42:38,960
vastly overestimate the amount of time

1287
00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:39,599
since we've

1288
00:42:46,069 --> 00:42:42,800
evolved uh that capability um

1289
00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:46,079
and third i also think

1290
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:49,359
that um there are guidelines

1291
00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:52,480
that are more or less uh objective uh

1292
00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:53,520
i'm not sort of

1293
00:42:57,309 --> 00:42:56,319
surrendering surrendering everything to

1294
00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:57,319
paragmat

1295
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:00,800
paradigmatic subjectivity

1296
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:04,079
the role you attribute to a

1297
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:07,040
more objective notion of plausibility i

1298
00:43:13,829 --> 00:43:10,240
would attribute to conceptual parsimony

1299
00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:13,839
because it's countable you know how many

1300
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:16,160
different kinds of things are you

1301
00:43:21,510 --> 00:43:17,920
postulating to account for

1302
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:21,520
observations and and although it's not

1303
00:43:26,069 --> 00:43:24,160
written or etched in stone in nature

1304
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:26,079
that the best explanation is always the

1305
00:43:31,510 --> 00:43:28,160
most conceptually parsimonious

1306
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,520
it may not be if we abandon

1307
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:33,839
parsimony as an epistemic guideline we

1308
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:36,720
open the doors to all kinds of nonsense

1309
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:38,400
for instance there is an example i often

1310
00:43:41,670 --> 00:43:40,000
like to use if i wake

1311
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:41,680
up in the morning and i see strange

1312
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:43,680
footprints in my backyard

1313
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,079
i can offer two explanations explanation

1314
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:48,560
a a burglar went around

1315
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:50,560
checked my door figured that it's well

1316
00:43:55,829 --> 00:43:52,880
secure and gave up and went away

1317
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:55,839
explanation two aliens landed on my

1318
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:57,280
neighbor's backyard

1319
00:44:00,309 --> 00:43:59,680
stole his shoes came for a stroll in my

1320
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:00,319
backyard

1321
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:02,400
left the footprints behind went back

1322
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:04,000
boarded their spaceship in

1323
00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:06,800
and flew back to the pleiades now

1324
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:07,680
neither

1325
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:10,480
theory can be disproved on the basis of

1326
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:12,079
the data available

1327
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:15,280
both account for the data but one

1328
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:17,440
postulates a lot less than the other one

1329
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:18,880
postulates a burglar

1330
00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:21,599
a human being of the kind we know exists

1331
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:23,520
the other postulates spaceships

1332
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:26,560
alien races uh illogical strokes

1333
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:29,839
uh illogical shoe robbery

1334
00:44:36,630 --> 00:44:33,520
so if if we abandon parsimony

1335
00:44:38,790 --> 00:44:36,640
um because we know it's not etched in

1336
00:44:42,630 --> 00:44:38,800
stone if we abandon that

1337
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:42,640
we are lost so i think that's one

1338
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,480
one fairly objective criterion for

1339
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:48,400
for guiding our epistemology if you

1340
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:49,760
start postulating

1341
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:53,040
too many things and interactions between

1342
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:54,319
too many things or

1343
00:44:58,630 --> 00:44:57,200
appealing to too many unknowns it it

1344
00:45:01,990 --> 00:44:58,640
doesn't go

1345
00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:02,000
anywhere or it's not reliable

1346
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:05,440
now finally uh regarding the question of

1347
00:45:09,750 --> 00:45:06,640
consciousness

1348
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:09,760
you said um we would

1349
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:12,960
always have to have a promissory

1350
00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:15,119
theory when it comes to consciousness i

1351
00:45:18,230 --> 00:45:16,400
would submit to you that that's

1352
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,240
only true if you're trying to reduce

1353
00:45:22,790 --> 00:45:20,400
consciousness to something that isn't

1354
00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:22,800
consciousness then whatever theory you

1355
00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:24,800
come up will be promissory because we

1356
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:26,880
have no idea how that reduction can take

1357
00:45:31,589 --> 00:45:28,480
place that's why we talk about

1358
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:31,599
strong emergency it's a way to not have

1359
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:34,880
to make the reduction explicit but you

1360
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,280
see

1361
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:37,680
every theory of nature needs to have at

1362
00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:39,359
least one thing in the reduction base

1363
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:41,359
you can't explain one thing in terms of

1364
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:43,520
another forever

1365
00:45:47,349 --> 00:45:45,280
otherwise eventually you go back the

1366
00:45:48,470 --> 00:45:47,359
question your reasoning will be circular

1367
00:45:51,349 --> 00:45:48,480
at some point

1368
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:51,359
so you have to always have that one

1369
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:52,560
thing at least one thing in the

1370
00:45:56,069 --> 00:45:53,760
reduction base

1371
00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:56,079
for which you have no explanation in

1372
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,200
other words

1373
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:59,599
you can't explain that one thing in

1374
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:01,359
terms of anything else

1375
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:03,119
that can still be your best theory of

1376
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:04,400
nature

1377
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:06,560
because so long as you can explain

1378
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:08,800
everything else in terms of that one

1379
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:09,760
thing

1380
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:12,319
then you're fine because you always need

1381
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:14,560
at least one thing in the reduction base

1382
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:16,240
i would offer to you that if you put

1383
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:18,160
consciousness as the one thing in that

1384
00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:21,040
reduction base

1385
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:23,200
you eliminate the heart problem of

1386
00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:24,800
consciousness because you're no longer

1387
00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:26,800
trying to reduce it the promissory notes

1388
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:28,079
are off the table

1389
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:31,040
your challenge now is to explain then

1390
00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:31,839
the

1391
00:46:44,309 --> 00:46:42,880
outside which are always qualitative

1392
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:44,319
ultimately

1393
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:46,400
in terms of that one thing in the

1394
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,440
reduction base

1395
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:49,520
that is the challenge but then i would

1396
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:50,960
submit to you that

1397
00:46:57,030 --> 00:46:54,560
that challenge is of a whole other level

1398
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:57,040
and character than trying to reduce

1399
00:47:02,230 --> 00:46:58,319
consciousness

1400
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:02,240
it entails no hard problems it entails

1401
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:05,760
no appeals to unknowns you can do that

1402
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:09,280
by using phenomena that you already

1403
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:12,400
know occur in nature

1404
00:47:15,829 --> 00:47:14,319
so i think it's much more promising to

1405
00:47:18,230 --> 00:47:15,839
go that way and then there is no

1406
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:18,240
promissory notes

1407
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:19,760
so i would respond to that i mean

1408
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:21,520
parsimony is a difficult thing

1409
00:47:25,829 --> 00:47:24,960
i mean it depends on how you individuate

1410
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:25,839
your entities

1411
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:27,520
and there's no canonical way of

1412
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:29,200
individuating entities

1413
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:30,720
and the attempt to find conceptual

1414
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:32,480
primitives i think has been a largely

1415
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:33,920
failed project

1416
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:36,720
so i at the number of entities depend on

1417
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:37,280
it

1418
00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:39,200
right how i individuate them is

1419
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:42,319
consciousness one thing or many things

1420
00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:43,760
how do you know that how do you

1421
00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:45,040
determine that and how do you determine

1422
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:46,720
that in a reliable way

1423
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:48,319
and and if you're talking about

1424
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:51,119
reduction uh do you have one thing or do

1425
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:52,000
you or

1426
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:54,400
is everything an illusion above that one

1427
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:55,200
thing

1428
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:56,960
and then you do have a hard problem of

1429
00:47:59,990 --> 00:47:58,640
how is it we're doing science at these

1430
00:48:02,069 --> 00:48:00,000
illusory levels

1431
00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:02,079
to point to the bottom level but that

1432
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:03,440
we're claiming is the only thing that

1433
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,800
really exists and if you say well no i

1434
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,400
don't mean they

1435
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:08,400
don't they're all illusions they also

1436
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,680
exist then i

1437
00:48:13,670 --> 00:48:11,440
posit to you that you do have a complex

1438
00:48:18,790 --> 00:48:13,680
ontology and you do have

1439
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:20,950
so i don't even know what we're

1440
00:48:23,670 --> 00:48:22,079
referring to

1441
00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:23,680
when we're individuating this thing

1442
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:25,359
you're calling consciousness

1443
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:28,800
um is it one thing um i don't know i

1444
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:29,200
mean

1445
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:31,040
it seems to me that there's aspects of

1446
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:32,319
my consciousness

1447
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:37,040
that are um qualitative in nature

1448
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:38,960
there's aspects of my uncon they're my

1449
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:41,119
conscious life that seem to

1450
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:42,800
require relationship to something that's

1451
00:48:47,829 --> 00:48:44,400
unconscious uh

1452
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:47,839
my memories come and go i wake up i fall

1453
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:48,880
asleep

1454
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:50,800
um has there actually been one

1455
00:48:54,470 --> 00:48:52,480
consciousness through all this time

1456
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,480
or multiple consciousnesses does my

1457
00:48:59,910 --> 00:48:56,319
consciousness disappear

1458
00:49:03,349 --> 00:48:59,920
i mean and i seem to be able to

1459
00:49:04,950 --> 00:49:03,359
have experiences where i i have sort of

1460
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,960
a dual consciousness where i'm

1461
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:06,400
i'm sort of aware of my own

1462
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:08,160
consciousness but i'm aware of the world

1463
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:10,000
as well is that one consciousness

1464
00:49:14,230 --> 00:49:12,720
or two i i mean and i'm not i'm not

1465
00:49:17,589 --> 00:49:14,240
trying to be obtuse here i i

1466
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:17,599
i the invocation of parsimony it seems

1467
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:18,480
to me

1468
00:49:22,390 --> 00:49:20,400
to is to i think it's really an

1469
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:22,400
indication of elegance

1470
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:24,880
uh because most people qualify even

1471
00:49:28,150 --> 00:49:25,920
occam did

1472
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:28,160
parsimony is you reduce to the minimum

1473
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:29,680
needed to generate

1474
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:32,400
your explanation um and that depends

1475
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:34,400
also as many people have pointed out

1476
00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:37,440
on how we individuate things right and

1477
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:39,119
we can't make it syntactic

1478
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:40,720
because all i can do is i can just

1479
00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:42,400
replace every relation with a higher

1480
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:43,280
order noun

1481
00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:48,000
baseball one thing or many things

1482
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:50,640
how do we count it well it's made up

1483
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:52,480
well it's made up of many people oh

1484
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:55,680
so it's made up of oh media like whoa

1485
00:49:59,670 --> 00:49:58,400
what is a person one thing is

1486
00:50:02,309 --> 00:49:59,680
consciousness one thing

1487
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:02,319
like so uh i think invoking the notion

1488
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:03,440
of parsimony

1489
00:50:09,030 --> 00:50:07,119
is ultimately uh something that we do

1490
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:09,040
heuristically and pragmatically i don't

1491
00:50:12,390 --> 00:50:09,599
think

1492
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:12,400
we have an algorithmic formal account i

1493
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:12,800
mean

1494
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:14,800
the accounts that we have that approach

1495
00:50:19,829 --> 00:50:16,640
that like gol magorov

1496
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:19,839
uh uh simplicity um uh proved to be

1497
00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:21,359
computationally impracticable

1498
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:23,040
uh so they they can't be what we're

1499
00:50:27,349 --> 00:50:25,040
using when we invoke parsimony

1500
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:27,359
uh and other than that i don't know any

1501
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:28,720
formalization

1502
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:31,440
of simplicity that isn't question making

1503
00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:32,079
um

1504
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:34,720
now we all use it bernardo i'm not i'm

1505
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:35,920
not denying that

1506
00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:38,079
but what i'm saying is i i think the the

1507
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:39,280
appeal to it

1508
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:42,400
as uh as an absolute

1509
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:45,520
uh mythological principle that we it

1510
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:46,240
just runs it

1511
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:48,480
objectively i'm not convinced by that

1512
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:49,440
argument

1513
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:52,480
um now uh to the point about

1514
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:55,839
consciousness again maybe maybe

1515
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:58,000
and this is what i need to get is and i

1516
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:59,200
i'm also conscious

1517
00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:01,040
pun intended uh that we're trying to

1518
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:02,400
make this dialogical

1519
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:05,920
i play we disagree and and and we have

1520
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,599
to be honest about our disagreements

1521
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:09,119
but i don't want to i don't want to come

1522
00:51:12,790 --> 00:51:11,040
off as like imperious

1523
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:12,800
or i want to come off as receptive and

1524
00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:14,640
listening to you uh not i don't want to

1525
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:16,079
come off i want to be that that's what i

1526
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:17,119
aspire to

1527
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:20,240
uh so um i'll try and

1528
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:23,280
i'll try and i'll try and uh i'll try

1529
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:23,920
and uh

1530
00:51:26,950 --> 00:51:26,160
live this as enthusiasm rather than

1531
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:26,960
anything

1532
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:30,480
i don't want to be doing that you're um

1533
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:33,520
so i'm not quite clear what you're

1534
00:51:39,030 --> 00:51:36,000
pointing to when you say

1535
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:39,040
like let's take sort of a stand your

1536
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:40,319
standard human thing

1537
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:41,680
i'm actually not aware of my

1538
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:43,359
consciousness

1539
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:46,640
i'm aware of things consciously but i'm

1540
00:51:51,270 --> 00:51:48,079
not aware of a thing

1541
00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:51,280
an entity uh consciousness that's human

1542
00:51:54,870 --> 00:51:51,920
right there

1543
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:54,880
hume versus sparkly yeah yeah yeah and

1544
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:55,760
and the pro and

1545
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:57,280
they're both empiricists they're they're

1546
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:58,559
so that's why i'm doing that because

1547
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,920
they they agree on the same

1548
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:01,520
methodological principles as far as i

1549
00:52:06,230 --> 00:52:02,400
can tell

1550
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:06,240
right um and so john give

1551
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:09,040
sorry to interrupt john give let's have

1552
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:10,559
some shorter

1553
00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:13,520
bursts of speech and then just hand off

1554
00:52:16,549 --> 00:52:15,280
to other other person maybe one question

1555
00:52:19,109 --> 00:52:16,559
or two questions and

1556
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:19,119
two statements well actually very long

1557
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:20,880
so maybe you should have a chance to

1558
00:52:25,270 --> 00:52:23,680
comment on everything i said well no i'm

1559
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:25,280
really i'm willing to do i'll just make

1560
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:27,040
those two points the points is

1561
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:30,240
i think that um i think i i don't think

1562
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:32,000
we actually ever go for simplicity i

1563
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:33,440
think we go for elegance balance by

1564
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:34,640
trustworthiness

1565
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:38,880
um i think that and and that's uh um

1566
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,640
so i think parsimony is is is a

1567
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,000
problematic notion

1568
00:52:45,109 --> 00:52:44,640
um um but the interest of anything is

1569
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:45,119
this

1570
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:46,880
even more problematic because what is

1571
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:48,240
trustworthy but

1572
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:51,440
but but i i get your point um and so and

1573
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:52,720
then my other point was

1574
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:56,240
um uh since we are counting and a single

1575
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:57,119
entity

1576
00:53:00,309 --> 00:52:59,040
uh there is a sort of you know the human

1577
00:53:02,790 --> 00:53:00,319
problems as well

1578
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:02,800
uh are are we talk are we equating

1579
00:53:07,990 --> 00:53:04,640
experience to consciousness

1580
00:53:10,470 --> 00:53:08,000
because that's a problematic move um and

1581
00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:10,480
are you really making consciousness uh

1582
00:53:12,710 --> 00:53:12,000
like it seems to me you have a double in

1583
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:12,720
consciousness

1584
00:53:20,630 --> 00:53:19,040
and therefore you're not actually

1585
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:20,640
getting the one thing

1586
00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:24,480
at the bottom um and that and then

1587
00:53:29,270 --> 00:53:27,520
all of this over here because the here

1588
00:53:30,549 --> 00:53:29,280
is something that's not within conscious

1589
00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:30,559
but i'm inferring

1590
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:32,640
i'm inferring it from my experience and

1591
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:34,240
then if i'm willing to infer things

1592
00:53:37,829 --> 00:53:35,839
outside of my consciousness

1593
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:37,839
well then why not be a realist that's i

1594
00:53:39,990 --> 00:53:39,040
guess that's what it sort of comes to

1595
00:53:42,950 --> 00:53:40,000
okay

1596
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:42,960
um i will i want to start with a point

1597
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:45,200
where i agree with you but uh just with

1598
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:46,720
a preamble first

1599
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:48,800
everything you said is directly

1600
00:53:53,670 --> 00:53:51,200
applicable as a criticism of physicalism

1601
00:53:56,069 --> 00:53:53,680
and any other ontology so you are not

1602
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:56,079
sort of singling out idealism you're

1603
00:54:00,150 --> 00:53:58,240
criticizing your own position

1604
00:54:01,829 --> 00:54:00,160
uh with the arguments you you just put

1605
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:01,839
on the table and there is one thing

1606
00:54:03,750 --> 00:54:03,359
where we agree and i think a lot of

1607
00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:03,760
people

1608
00:54:11,349 --> 00:54:07,760
miss on it our carving out

1609
00:54:14,470 --> 00:54:11,359
the world into things is purely

1610
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:14,480
nominal there is no antique

1611
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:17,680
criterion for saying the car ends here

1612
00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:20,800
and here begins the road or here

1613
00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:24,000
the river ends and the ocean begins we

1614
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:26,480
we separate the universe into things out

1615
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:27,839
of convenience

1616
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:31,839
it's it's arbitrary and and nominal

1617
00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:34,160
because if you say well i would define a

1618
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:36,319
car in terms of functionality

1619
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:38,480
so if i need the spark plugs then for

1620
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:39,599
the car to move

1621
00:54:43,349 --> 00:54:42,240
then the spark plugs spark spark plugs

1622
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:43,359
are part of the car

1623
00:54:47,589 --> 00:54:45,520
well then you need the road because

1624
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:47,599
without the road for the tires to grip

1625
00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:50,079
you don't move and you need the air to

1626
00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:51,440
enable combustion

1627
00:54:56,069 --> 00:54:53,440
and you need the gravity of the earth to

1628
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:56,079
pull the car towards the road i mean

1629
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:58,000
soon you have the entire universe and

1630
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:00,160
now with with quantum entanglement

1631
00:55:03,349 --> 00:55:02,559
uh uh you literally have the entire

1632
00:55:06,789 --> 00:55:03,359
universe

1633
00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:06,799
into things

1634
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:09,440
is is completely nominal i do think we

1635
00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:11,040
have anontic criterium

1636
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:14,319
for saying that we end here

1637
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:16,400
like if you shoot a bullet through the

1638
00:55:19,750 --> 00:55:18,240
chair where i'm sitting i will not feel

1639
00:55:21,270 --> 00:55:19,760
it but if you shoot a bullet through my

1640
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:21,280
belly i will feel it

1641
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:24,079
if a photon hits my retina i see it if

1642
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:25,920
it hits the wall behind me i don't see

1643
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:26,480
it

1644
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:29,839
saying

1645
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:33,040
here we as you know our inner lives can

1646
00:55:37,349 --> 00:55:35,200
be delimited in physical space

1647
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:37,359
at the boundaries of our body and that's

1648
00:55:42,630 --> 00:55:40,400
not merely nominal it's not arbitrary

1649
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:42,640
because in some in some cases i feel in

1650
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:44,480
other cases i don't view

1651
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,960
now um where do i want to go with this

1652
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:50,640
i lost my train of thought where i was

1653
00:55:53,589 --> 00:55:51,760
going with this but it was very

1654
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:53,599
important what uh what i wanted to tell

1655
00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:54,799
you

1656
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:00,960
briefly again

1657
00:56:07,349 --> 00:56:04,319
oh oh yeah i remember i remember um

1658
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:07,359
the the idea of parsimony and and how do

1659
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:08,079
you say

1660
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:10,160
uh whether consciousness is more than

1661
00:56:14,710 --> 00:56:11,440
one thing and

1662
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:14,720
and hume's critique uh of of barkley

1663
00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:17,119
so for the sake of the audience uh

1664
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:18,079
barclay said well

1665
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:20,240
everything is in the mind and hume's

1666
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:21,760
critique was to ask

1667
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:23,920
well what is the mind i'm not aware of a

1668
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:25,599
mind i am aware of different

1669
00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:29,040
experiences so how can you can you pull

1670
00:56:34,150 --> 00:56:32,000
a psyche a mind the soul out of the

1671
00:56:36,390 --> 00:56:34,160
variety of experiences i have

1672
00:56:37,670 --> 00:56:36,400
and back in the day that seemed to have

1673
00:56:40,710 --> 00:56:37,680
been a strong enough

1674
00:56:41,750 --> 00:56:40,720
criticism back in the 18th century but

1675
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:41,760
it misses out

1676
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:45,359
on a very clear intuition that we all

1677
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:46,400
have

1678
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:48,960
although the qualities of experiences

1679
00:56:53,109 --> 00:56:51,440
can vary wildly

1680
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:53,119
the quality of having a bellyache is

1681
00:56:56,470 --> 00:56:54,640
totally different from the quality of

1682
00:57:00,069 --> 00:56:56,480
falling in love

1683
00:57:02,950 --> 00:57:00,079
all these things are still qualitative

1684
00:57:05,270 --> 00:57:02,960
they are experiential they are not

1685
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:05,280
theoretical abstractions they are not

1686
00:57:09,190 --> 00:57:07,200
something that can be exhaustively

1687
00:57:11,589 --> 00:57:09,200
described through quantities

1688
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:11,599
or physical parameters they are

1689
00:57:14,309 --> 00:57:12,720
qualitative

1690
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:14,319
so i would offer to you the following

1691
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:16,240
definition of consciousness which

1692
00:57:19,589 --> 00:57:17,760
is consistent with the idea that

1693
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:19,599
consciousness is the one

1694
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:22,640
member of the reduction base mind

1695
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:24,839
or consciousness which i will use

1696
00:57:29,030 --> 00:57:26,319
interchangeably

1697
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:29,040
is that whose excitations are

1698
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:30,559
experiences

1699
00:57:35,190 --> 00:57:32,480
and if you define it that way then there

1700
00:57:37,990 --> 00:57:35,200
is only the experiencer

1701
00:57:39,109 --> 00:57:38,000
and experiences are different patterns

1702
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:39,119
of excitation

1703
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:42,160
of the experiencer so

1704
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:44,720
there is nothing to experience but the

1705
00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:45,839
experiencer

1706
00:57:49,270 --> 00:57:47,520
in the same sense that there is nothing

1707
00:57:52,230 --> 00:57:49,280
to a ripple but

1708
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:52,240
the lake where it ripples we use

1709
00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:53,200
different words

1710
00:57:58,309 --> 00:57:56,319
because it's convenient in dialogue to

1711
00:57:59,750 --> 00:57:58,319
speak of ripples instead of patterns of

1712
00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,760
movement of the lake

1713
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,680
but we have to keep in mind that all

1714
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:03,359
along there is only the lake so hour

1715
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:04,640
long there is only

1716
00:58:07,990 --> 00:58:06,559
subjectivity there is only the

1717
00:58:10,069 --> 00:58:08,000
experience sir

1718
00:58:11,910 --> 00:58:10,079
and experiences are just patterns of

1719
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:11,920
excitation of the experiencer

1720
00:58:15,030 --> 00:58:14,160
this has another advantage which it

1721
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:15,040
eliminates

1722
00:58:18,950 --> 00:58:17,119
any interaction problem between

1723
00:58:20,789 --> 00:58:18,960
experience and the experiencer

1724
00:58:22,069 --> 00:58:20,799
because there is no such a thing as an

1725
00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:22,079
experience outside

1726
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:24,319
the experiencer there is only the

1727
00:58:29,349 --> 00:58:25,680
experiencer

1728
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:29,359
um what is the experience here above and

1729
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,760
beyond the set of experiences

1730
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:33,440
like why are they not just an atomic

1731
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:35,040
sequence of experiences

1732
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:37,920
as a sequence of atomic experiences that

1733
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:40,000
would lead you to all kinds of problems

1734
00:58:43,670 --> 00:58:42,240
for instance what binds these

1735
00:58:46,549 --> 00:58:43,680
experiences together

1736
00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:46,559
why do we have the inner feeling that

1737
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:48,559
these experiences are being had by

1738
00:58:52,630 --> 00:58:51,040
us as a subjective point of view into a

1739
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:52,640
field of phenomenality

1740
00:58:59,109 --> 00:58:56,000
right and so so i answer a problem

1741
00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:59,119
by inferring a relation right and

1742
00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:00,799
and then that relation and the

1743
00:59:04,069 --> 00:59:02,640
mechanisms by which that relation works

1744
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:04,079
how things are bound together

1745
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:05,119
is actually not something i'm

1746
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:06,480
consciously aware of let me give you a

1747
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:08,319
concrete example

1748
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:11,520
i mean i'm hearing your words and i'm

1749
00:59:14,789 --> 00:59:12,480
getting ideas

1750
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:14,799
out of that and that's binding them

1751
00:59:17,349 --> 00:59:15,520
together

1752
00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:17,359
into an integrated proposition in my

1753
00:59:22,390 --> 00:59:20,480
mind i have no idea how i'm doing that

1754
00:59:24,870 --> 00:59:22,400
my introspective awareness of that gives

1755
00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:24,880
me no account in fact

1756
00:59:29,349 --> 00:59:27,119
and any in common sense intuitions i

1757
00:59:31,270 --> 00:59:29,359
have have largely turned out to be wrong

1758
00:59:32,950 --> 00:59:31,280
so most of the processing that is

1759
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:32,960
allowing me to do the binding is not a

1760
00:59:36,390 --> 00:59:34,880
processing within my consciousness

1761
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:36,400
it's a processing that makes my

1762
00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:38,400
consciousness possible

1763
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:40,240
right i mean that's the content argument

1764
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:42,000
right the content argument is you

1765
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:42,960
have to propose some sort of

1766
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:45,359
transcendental binding but it's tr it's

1767
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:46,880
precisely transcendental

1768
00:59:50,069 --> 00:59:48,960
you argue for it as that which grounds

1769
00:59:51,510 --> 00:59:50,079
and makes possible

1770
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:51,520
the experience not as something that's

1771
00:59:56,630 --> 00:59:53,760
found within the experience

1772
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:56,640
uh here this has a lot to do with one

1773
01:00:01,190 --> 00:59:58,640
point you made before

1774
01:00:01,910 --> 01:00:01,200
which is you said a lot of my conscious

1775
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:01,920
experiences

1776
01:00:05,109 --> 01:00:04,240
seem to be anchored in something that is

1777
01:00:06,710 --> 01:00:05,119
not

1778
01:00:07,990 --> 01:00:06,720
uh consciousness something that's sort

1779
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:08,000
of operating in the dark in the

1780
01:00:11,829 --> 01:00:08,640
background

1781
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:11,839
i find that more generic criticism

1782
01:00:15,829 --> 01:00:14,000
to hold better than what you just said i

1783
01:00:17,670 --> 01:00:15,839
would say

1784
01:00:19,670 --> 01:00:17,680
how do you know that there is binding

1785
01:00:22,950 --> 01:00:19,680
well that binding is itself

1786
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:22,960
an experience it is itself a pattern of

1787
01:00:28,710 --> 01:00:25,040
excitation of your subjectivity

1788
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:28,720
that arises maybe as an interference and

1789
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:31,520
wait but i i'm not asking how i know the

1790
01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:32,720
binding is there

1791
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:35,280
i'm asking what it is that exists in

1792
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:37,599
order to explain the binding

1793
01:00:40,950 --> 01:00:39,760
and those aren't the same thing right i

1794
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:40,960
don't think the entity you're looking

1795
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:43,359
for is necessary

1796
01:00:47,510 --> 01:00:45,599
the notion of binding is itself a

1797
01:00:49,349 --> 01:00:47,520
pattern of excitation of consciousness

1798
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:49,359
because the binding so far as you can

1799
01:00:52,549 --> 01:00:50,240
speak of it

1800
01:00:54,789 --> 01:00:52,559
it is some kind of experience you're

1801
01:00:57,190 --> 01:00:54,799
having no no the binding

1802
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:57,200
that so i have a conscious experience of

1803
01:01:00,230 --> 01:00:58,720
you making sense

1804
01:01:02,390 --> 01:01:00,240
but i don't have a conscious experience

1805
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:02,400
of the binding of those sounds

1806
01:01:09,030 --> 01:01:05,839
into meaning that then make and you know

1807
01:01:11,829 --> 01:01:09,040
i i i and i like i have no conscious

1808
01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:11,839
experience of acquiring english

1809
01:01:17,589 --> 01:01:14,880
but here it is and i have it

1810
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:17,599
right how is that bound to me right i i

1811
01:01:21,589 --> 01:01:18,559
want to answer

1812
01:01:23,349 --> 01:01:21,599
this but yeah i want i wanted to answer

1813
01:01:24,309 --> 01:01:23,359
a better example because i think here

1814
01:01:26,549 --> 01:01:24,319
you are looking for an

1815
01:01:28,630 --> 01:01:26,559
entity that doesn't need to be there i

1816
01:01:29,910 --> 01:01:28,640
think there is a very natural flow of

1817
01:01:32,470 --> 01:01:29,920
experience which we call

1818
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:32,480
understanding but i agree with you that

1819
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:34,640
you are appealing to a lot of background

1820
01:01:38,789 --> 01:01:37,520
stuff to enable that conscious binding

1821
01:01:40,069 --> 01:01:38,799
you're appealing to knowledge that

1822
01:01:41,670 --> 01:01:40,079
you've had before

1823
01:01:43,430 --> 01:01:41,680
and which is no longer in the screen of

1824
01:01:46,549 --> 01:01:43,440
your memory being relived

1825
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:46,559
right now um and look there there is

1826
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:50,160
over a hundred years 150 years now if

1827
01:01:53,190 --> 01:01:50,640
you count

1828
01:01:54,309 --> 01:01:53,200
far back enough of depth psychology

1829
01:01:56,549 --> 01:01:54,319
which sort of

1830
01:01:59,029 --> 01:01:56,559
has accumulated evidence for parts of

1831
01:02:00,549 --> 01:01:59,039
the psyche that we cannot report on

1832
01:02:02,630 --> 01:02:00,559
feelings that we have and we can't

1833
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:02,640
report on memories that we have and we

1834
01:02:05,829 --> 01:02:04,079
can't report on

1835
01:02:07,349 --> 01:02:05,839
and which may lead to the notion that

1836
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:07,359
okay there is something other than

1837
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:08,160
consciousness

1838
01:02:13,670 --> 01:02:11,839
on the basis of something that i can't

1839
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:13,680
consciously report then there is

1840
01:02:18,069 --> 01:02:15,280
something other than consciousness

1841
01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:18,079
i would dispute that based on the modern

1842
01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:18,400
uh

1843
01:02:21,510 --> 01:02:20,160
differentiation between consciousness

1844
01:02:24,150 --> 01:02:21,520
and meta consciousness

1845
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:24,160
between conscious experience and

1846
01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:26,000
conscious metacognition

1847
01:02:31,670 --> 01:02:28,880
i think what we report is an expression

1848
01:02:33,589 --> 01:02:31,680
of what we what we are metacognizant of

1849
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:33,599
the contents of our meta consciousness

1850
01:02:38,710 --> 01:02:35,599
the experiences we have and know

1851
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:38,720
that we have but in the background

1852
01:02:43,510 --> 01:02:41,520
uh stuff that we cannot report because

1853
01:02:44,470 --> 01:02:43,520
we don't know that we are experiencing

1854
01:02:47,349 --> 01:02:44,480
that stuff

1855
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:47,359
it is still consciousness um and we have

1856
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:48,880
everyday examples to show that you're

1857
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:50,799
breathing right now you're always

1858
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:52,799
conscious of your breathing but only

1859
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:54,640
right now because i mentioned it

1860
01:02:58,870 --> 01:02:57,599
did you did you become meta conscious of

1861
01:03:01,589 --> 01:02:58,880
your breathing because you

1862
01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:01,599
placed your your attention on it you you

1863
01:03:06,789 --> 01:03:04,240
reflected that experience of breathing

1864
01:03:07,270 --> 01:03:06,799
so this stuff in the background that you

1865
01:03:10,309 --> 01:03:07,280
have

1866
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:10,319
referred to i would say it's all

1867
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:12,640
experiences which are not available to

1868
01:03:15,190 --> 01:03:14,480
your introspection right now for you to

1869
01:03:17,510 --> 01:03:15,200
report

1870
01:03:18,950 --> 01:03:17,520
because they are obfuscated by the

1871
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:18,960
limited contents of your meta

1872
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:19,760
consciousness

1873
01:03:23,589 --> 01:03:22,559
or they are dissociated or inferentially

1874
01:03:25,589 --> 01:03:23,599
isolated

1875
01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:25,599
we know dissociation exists and it's for

1876
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:27,839
real since the advent of neuroimaging in

1877
01:03:33,750 --> 01:03:30,400
the 21st century

1878
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:33,760
so i i i do think that hume's critique

1879
01:03:40,710 --> 01:03:39,829
was a straw man because he wanted to

1880
01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:40,720
produce a

1881
01:03:45,670 --> 01:03:43,920
thing a psyche a soul you don't need

1882
01:03:46,950 --> 01:03:45,680
that all you need is a field of

1883
01:03:49,670 --> 01:03:46,960
subjectivity whose

1884
01:03:52,150 --> 01:03:49,680
excitations are our experiences and now

1885
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:52,160
in the 21st century we now have

1886
01:03:56,069 --> 01:03:54,720
a century of examples in physics in

1887
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:56,079
which we've done exactly that we've

1888
01:03:59,029 --> 01:03:56,960
reduced now

1889
01:04:00,710 --> 01:03:59,039
elementary subatomic particles to the

1890
01:04:02,870 --> 01:04:00,720
patterns of excitation of a quantum

1891
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:02,880
field and going to m theory this is even

1892
01:04:06,630 --> 01:04:04,400
this even goes into the direction of

1893
01:04:09,109 --> 01:04:06,640
unification theory there's a there's an

1894
01:04:10,069 --> 01:04:09,119
enormous tradition about reducing things

1895
01:04:13,510 --> 01:04:10,079
towards

1896
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:13,520
excitations of uh extended uh

1897
01:04:18,789 --> 01:04:17,280
um feuds so to say okay

1898
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:18,799
john looks like he's bubbling with rage

1899
01:04:24,950 --> 01:04:21,440
so please not bubbling with rage

1900
01:04:26,069 --> 01:04:24,960
uh yeah let it all out john no i want to

1901
01:04:29,190 --> 01:04:26,079
get it all though because i i

1902
01:04:30,710 --> 01:04:29,200
want i want to make space uh so you're

1903
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:30,720
dividing consciousness into meta

1904
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:31,520
consciousness

1905
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:33,359
and things in the background that i

1906
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,960
can't get access to

1907
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:36,960
because i currently don't have knowledge

1908
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:38,960
and it sounds to me like you have parts

1909
01:04:43,349 --> 01:04:39,440
of

1910
01:04:46,069 --> 01:04:43,359
other

1911
01:04:47,349 --> 01:04:46,079
so again now you have a multiple entity

1912
01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:47,359
as far as i can see

1913
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:49,119
ontologically is only one thing it's

1914
01:04:52,069 --> 01:04:50,400
common

1915
01:04:54,069 --> 01:04:52,079
but why because it's only one kind of

1916
01:04:54,950 --> 01:04:54,079
stuff and there are dynamisms within

1917
01:04:56,710 --> 01:04:54,960
this consciousness no

1918
01:04:58,470 --> 01:04:56,720
no no no we're not talking no no we're

1919
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:58,480
not talking about just one kind of stuff

1920
01:05:02,950 --> 01:05:01,520
we're talking about the entity no no

1921
01:05:04,789 --> 01:05:02,960
we were talking about the number of

1922
01:05:06,789 --> 01:05:04,799
entities we propose

1923
01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:06,799
in our explanation in order to generate

1924
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:08,000
our explanations

1925
01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:11,440
that's what we were talking about and

1926
01:05:14,470 --> 01:05:13,200
to say i'm proposing one kind of stuff

1927
01:05:15,910 --> 01:05:14,480
is to beg the question because then

1928
01:05:17,270 --> 01:05:15,920
you're invoking the parsimony

1929
01:05:19,349 --> 01:05:17,280
and that's the very thing that i'm

1930
01:05:20,789 --> 01:05:19,359
pointing to which is it seems to me

1931
01:05:21,829 --> 01:05:20,799
you're multiplying your entities in

1932
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:21,839
order to try and generate your

1933
01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:22,640
explanation

1934
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:24,880
as you should as you should i mean

1935
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:26,880
because i deny that

1936
01:05:30,950 --> 01:05:29,039
i i thought by appealing to feuds i i

1937
01:05:34,710 --> 01:05:30,960
had to counter that but okay go ahead

1938
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:34,720
okay but so you've got you've got

1939
01:05:39,430 --> 01:05:37,760
things in in my consciousness my

1940
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:39,440
introspective consciousness that

1941
01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:41,920
i are nevertheless so there seems to be

1942
01:05:46,069 --> 01:05:42,720
distinction

1943
01:05:47,910 --> 01:05:46,079
what's in my consciousness and what's

1944
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:47,920
available to my consciousness via meta

1945
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:48,799
consciousness

1946
01:05:53,109 --> 01:05:52,079
functionality different than from the

1947
01:05:55,270 --> 01:05:53,119
rest of consciousness

1948
01:05:56,309 --> 01:05:55,280
to explain the fact that it's limited in

1949
01:05:58,630 --> 01:05:56,319
some fashion

1950
01:06:00,390 --> 01:05:58,640
yes yeah so in terms of the

1951
01:06:02,150 --> 01:06:00,400
functionality i can count different

1952
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:02,160
things there yes no

1953
01:06:05,750 --> 01:06:04,640
no because why not consciousness and

1954
01:06:08,470 --> 01:06:05,760
meta consciousness

1955
01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:08,480
are both consciousness ontologically do

1956
01:06:11,349 --> 01:06:10,079
they operate the same way according to

1957
01:06:13,029 --> 01:06:11,359
the same principles and the same

1958
01:06:14,950 --> 01:06:13,039
functions

1959
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:14,960
does an electron operate the same way as

1960
01:06:20,230 --> 01:06:16,240
a quark

1961
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:20,240
both are parts of a field um so

1962
01:06:25,829 --> 01:06:23,760
yes you can have one thing manifest

1963
01:06:27,349 --> 01:06:25,839
different patterns of behavior or to

1964
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:27,359
function in different ways

1965
01:06:31,349 --> 01:06:29,440
without requiring that thing to be many

1966
01:06:33,589 --> 01:06:31,359
things ontologically it's still one

1967
01:06:36,150 --> 01:06:33,599
thing with multiple different functions

1968
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:36,160
what in a non-question begging manner

1969
01:06:41,589 --> 01:06:37,920
what makes it one thing

1970
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:41,599
it's experiential but it's precisely not

1971
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:43,280
because my meta consciousness can't

1972
01:06:48,069 --> 01:06:45,680
experience parts of my consciousness no

1973
01:06:50,470 --> 01:06:48,079
your meta consciousness cannot report

1974
01:06:52,710 --> 01:06:50,480
parts of your consciousness to yourself

1975
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:52,720
but my point is exactly that what is not

1976
01:06:57,190 --> 01:06:55,039
reported is still experiential

1977
01:06:58,789 --> 01:06:57,200
just as your breathing is experiential

1978
01:06:59,589 --> 01:06:58,799
when you're not reporting to yourself i

1979
01:07:00,789 --> 01:06:59,599
am breathing

1980
01:07:02,789 --> 01:07:00,799
how is that different from your

1981
01:07:04,789 --> 01:07:02,799
experience being experiential

1982
01:07:05,910 --> 01:07:04,799
and i can't and i'm not aware of it

1983
01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:05,920
right now

1984
01:07:09,910 --> 01:07:08,160
i would postulate dissociation as

1985
01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:09,920
something that exists in nature

1986
01:07:14,069 --> 01:07:11,680
we not understand it fully well but we

1987
01:07:17,029 --> 01:07:14,079
know it exists and it could account for

1988
01:07:18,390 --> 01:07:17,039
the appearance of there being multiple

1989
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:18,400
minds instead of one and

1990
01:07:22,470 --> 01:07:20,000
the study of dissociative identity

1991
01:07:25,829 --> 01:07:22,480
disorder now it's has advanced so much

1992
01:07:28,789 --> 01:07:25,839
that we know it's literally blinding

1993
01:07:30,870 --> 01:07:28,799
sure and and and but we we also have you

1994
01:07:32,710 --> 01:07:30,880
know accounts of the dissociation

1995
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:32,720
um in terms of trauma i mean there's

1996
01:07:37,829 --> 01:07:34,559
serious disanalogies

1997
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:37,839
but because notice what you tend to

1998
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:38,400
invoke

1999
01:07:42,470 --> 01:07:40,240
when you do that you have now three

2000
01:07:44,470 --> 01:07:42,480
entities you have the meta consciousness

2001
01:07:47,270 --> 01:07:44,480
that can't report to myself

2002
01:07:48,549 --> 01:07:47,280
what's going on in my consciousness um

2003
01:07:50,390 --> 01:07:48,559
and that seems to me

2004
01:07:52,309 --> 01:07:50,400
to be and and that's the kind of

2005
01:07:53,589 --> 01:07:52,319
machinery you typically invoke

2006
01:07:55,589 --> 01:07:53,599
at least in the psychological

2007
01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:55,599
discussions of

2008
01:07:59,589 --> 01:07:58,079
right of dissociation like i get

2009
01:08:00,870 --> 01:07:59,599
dissociation from this part

2010
01:08:03,430 --> 01:08:00,880
of this part of my mind from this part

2011
01:08:05,109 --> 01:08:03,440
of my mind in order to protect myself

2012
01:08:06,870 --> 01:08:05,119
this part is protected from trauma from

2013
01:08:10,549 --> 01:08:06,880
that part etc

2014
01:08:12,390 --> 01:08:10,559
um and so it now sounds like you've got

2015
01:08:13,910 --> 01:08:12,400
meta consciousness that can't fully

2016
01:08:16,950 --> 01:08:13,920
report to the self

2017
01:08:18,870 --> 01:08:16,960
what's going on in consciousness both

2018
01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:18,880
our consciousness meta consciousness is

2019
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:20,400
a particular configuration of

2020
01:08:24,149 --> 01:08:21,520
consciousness

2021
01:08:25,269 --> 01:08:24,159
what is the self it's reporting to it's

2022
01:08:27,189 --> 01:08:25,279
the one future

2023
01:08:29,030 --> 01:08:27,199
of subjectivity where all these

2024
01:08:31,189 --> 01:08:29,040
experiences are are happening

2025
01:08:32,390 --> 01:08:31,199
some of them are reflected and therefore

2026
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:32,400
can be reported

2027
01:08:37,269 --> 01:08:35,679
other experiences are not reflected but

2028
01:08:40,390 --> 01:08:37,279
but i'm asking what is the reporting

2029
01:08:42,149 --> 01:08:40,400
going to if it's going back to the field

2030
01:08:43,910 --> 01:08:42,159
and better consciousness is in the field

2031
01:08:47,110 --> 01:08:43,920
why is why is medic consciousness

2032
01:08:50,470 --> 01:08:47,120
unaware of it because

2033
01:08:52,309 --> 01:08:50,480
it's not reporting to itself or what

2034
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:52,319
all the patterns of excitation that are

2035
01:08:56,070 --> 01:08:54,239
happening in the field because it folds

2036
01:08:58,709 --> 01:08:56,080
in upon itself in such a way

2037
01:08:59,110 --> 01:08:58,719
that it focuses the ability to to focus

2038
01:09:02,229 --> 01:08:59,120
to

2039
01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,239
going on

2040
01:09:05,669 --> 01:09:04,560
and that's presumably very important for

2041
01:09:07,590 --> 01:09:05,679
survival

2042
01:09:08,950 --> 01:09:07,600
so it's reporting to itself that it

2043
01:09:12,070 --> 01:09:08,960
doesn't have

2044
01:09:15,030 --> 01:09:12,080
everything is that but

2045
01:09:15,829 --> 01:09:15,040
it's not reporting to itself some of the

2046
01:09:18,070 --> 01:09:15,839
experiences

2047
01:09:19,749 --> 01:09:18,080
it is having i mean from psychology we

2048
01:09:22,709 --> 01:09:19,759
know this happens i mean we

2049
01:09:23,590 --> 01:09:22,719
don't need to go very far especially men

2050
01:09:25,510 --> 01:09:23,600
are not

2051
01:09:27,030 --> 01:09:25,520
able to report even to themselves a lot

2052
01:09:27,510 --> 01:09:27,040
of the emotions that they are actually

2053
01:09:29,349 --> 01:09:27,520
have and

2054
01:09:31,590 --> 01:09:29,359
having and which is impacting their

2055
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:31,600
behavior i mean therapy rooms world

2056
01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:34,640
the world over are featured

2057
01:09:38,390 --> 01:09:36,239
okay let's turn this into a therapy room

2058
01:09:39,430 --> 01:09:38,400
for a second

2059
01:09:41,590 --> 01:09:39,440
right now we're talking about the

2060
01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:41,600
disagreements and in previous podcasts

2061
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:42,960
what i like to refer to is something

2062
01:09:45,349 --> 01:09:44,640
called theomaki which is a battle of the

2063
01:09:46,950 --> 01:09:45,359
gods

2064
01:09:49,110 --> 01:09:46,960
and it's tongue-in-cheek because

2065
01:09:51,430 --> 01:09:49,120
obviously you're not gods but

2066
01:09:52,309 --> 01:09:51,440
intellectually you're intellectually

2067
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:52,319
used you're

2068
01:09:55,990 --> 01:09:55,280
let's say mini demons whatever you want

2069
01:09:57,590 --> 01:09:56,000
to call it

2070
01:09:59,110 --> 01:09:57,600
and so i like to say that this is theo

2071
01:10:00,070 --> 01:09:59,120
maki and i wanted this to be more of a

2072
01:10:01,270 --> 01:10:00,080
theolocution

2073
01:10:03,189 --> 01:10:01,280
in fact i was going to coin that term

2074
01:10:06,229 --> 01:10:03,199
because you have dialogues for vicky

2075
01:10:08,070 --> 01:10:06,239
sure this is theolocution and

2076
01:10:10,070 --> 01:10:08,080
i don't care if it turns into theomaki

2077
01:10:12,950 --> 01:10:10,080
it's actually entertaining much like the

2078
01:10:13,990 --> 01:10:12,960
debate that was about truth between sam

2079
01:10:15,270 --> 01:10:14,000
harris and

2080
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:15,280
peterson and maybe this is going to

2081
01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:17,199
become one of those where we hammer down

2082
01:10:21,110 --> 01:10:19,040
specifically onto one instead of the

2083
01:10:24,390 --> 01:10:21,120
broad array of subjects

2084
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:24,400
which i don't mind so to turn it into a

2085
01:10:29,110 --> 01:10:26,000
bit of a therapeutic session

2086
01:10:30,790 --> 01:10:29,120
why don't you first each say something

2087
01:10:32,550 --> 01:10:30,800
about the other's point of view that you

2088
01:10:35,590 --> 01:10:32,560
agree with or find interesting and then

2089
01:10:38,229 --> 01:10:35,600
you can go and battle it out once more

2090
01:10:39,510 --> 01:10:38,239
uh well i mean i think we are battling

2091
01:10:41,350 --> 01:10:39,520
it out precisely because

2092
01:10:42,550 --> 01:10:41,360
we are respecting each other and we're

2093
01:10:44,390 --> 01:10:42,560
trying to do science

2094
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,400
and the problem here is science is a

2095
01:10:49,270 --> 01:10:46,320
little bit different configured

2096
01:10:50,950 --> 01:10:49,280
i mean science intensive sciences uh not

2097
01:10:52,550 --> 01:10:50,960
in the sense of just empirical science

2098
01:10:53,510 --> 01:10:52,560
that we're trying to do science here and

2099
01:10:56,470 --> 01:10:53,520
and therefore

2100
01:10:57,750 --> 01:10:56,480
uh we we we're doing the the kind of

2101
01:10:59,189 --> 01:10:57,760
thing you do in science which is pit

2102
01:10:59,750 --> 01:10:59,199
arguments and evidence against each

2103
01:11:03,110 --> 01:10:59,760
other

2104
01:11:04,470 --> 01:11:03,120
um and and and

2105
01:11:05,990 --> 01:11:04,480
and and i think that's sort of

2106
01:11:07,030 --> 01:11:06,000
appropriate within the scientific

2107
01:11:08,709 --> 01:11:07,040
discourse

2108
01:11:10,630 --> 01:11:08,719
uh if we move to more you know

2109
01:11:12,790 --> 01:11:10,640
existentially encompassing issues

2110
01:11:14,070 --> 01:11:12,800
i think then we we shouldn't stay in the

2111
01:11:17,270 --> 01:11:14,080
in the realm of debate

2112
01:11:20,229 --> 01:11:17,280
uh we should move into dear logos um

2113
01:11:21,910 --> 01:11:20,239
there's a lot i respect first of all uh

2114
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:21,920
i wouldn't be giving my time

2115
01:11:25,910 --> 01:11:24,560
and effort to and this is not meant to

2116
01:11:27,510 --> 01:11:25,920
be left-handed

2117
01:11:30,149 --> 01:11:27,520
to bernardo if i didn't think he was

2118
01:11:32,950 --> 01:11:30,159
articulating his position very well

2119
01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:32,960
and so i i do want to acknowledge that

2120
01:11:38,709 --> 01:11:33,360
and i

2121
01:11:42,470 --> 01:11:41,350
i would agree with him i hope this is

2122
01:11:44,709 --> 01:11:42,480
comes off as

2123
01:11:46,950 --> 01:11:44,719
uh an appropriate compliment i think

2124
01:11:50,550 --> 01:11:46,960
most of the versions of materialism

2125
01:11:52,149 --> 01:11:50,560
that are prevalent even within

2126
01:11:53,270 --> 01:11:52,159
some of the cognitive science community

2127
01:11:54,950 --> 01:11:53,280
especially within neuroscience

2128
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:54,960
neuroscientists for example

2129
01:12:00,630 --> 01:11:59,040
uh the vast majority of them uh adopt uh

2130
01:12:01,990 --> 01:12:00,640
you know a strong identity theory that i

2131
01:12:03,270 --> 01:12:02,000
think would just be devastated by the

2132
01:12:07,350 --> 01:12:03,280
kinds of arguments

2133
01:12:08,870 --> 01:12:07,360
that bernardo is bringing up and so

2134
01:12:10,310 --> 01:12:08,880
that's why i don't eat that that's

2135
01:12:11,430 --> 01:12:10,320
because of the sophistication of these

2136
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:11,440
arguments

2137
01:12:14,950 --> 01:12:13,760
and and their plausibility i'll use that

2138
01:12:17,590 --> 01:12:14,960
if you'll allow me

2139
01:12:19,510 --> 01:12:17,600
uh that i think uh any a hard-line

2140
01:12:20,470 --> 01:12:19,520
materialism like that is not a viable

2141
01:12:25,590 --> 01:12:20,480
position

2142
01:12:29,270 --> 01:12:25,600
um so i like that about what he's doing

2143
01:12:32,870 --> 01:12:29,280
i like that he is

2144
01:12:37,110 --> 01:12:32,880
um trying to give a

2145
01:12:39,430 --> 01:12:37,120
larger place to our phenomenology

2146
01:12:41,110 --> 01:12:39,440
uh then is typically given in a lot of

2147
01:12:42,709 --> 01:12:41,120
the analytic discourse

2148
01:12:44,470 --> 01:12:42,719
around consciousness and the mind-body

2149
01:12:45,830 --> 01:12:44,480
problem and that's a bit of a disjunct

2150
01:12:47,510 --> 01:12:45,840
between the continental

2151
01:12:48,870 --> 01:12:47,520
and the anglo-american tradition and i

2152
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:48,880
like that that's why i've been trying to

2153
01:12:52,870 --> 01:12:50,640
shift into the phenomenological

2154
01:12:54,470 --> 01:12:52,880
with him right now and play there

2155
01:12:57,669 --> 01:12:54,480
because i think that's a

2156
01:13:00,149 --> 01:12:57,679
i think that's important and

2157
01:13:02,709 --> 01:13:00,159
so that's those are two two or three

2158
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:02,719
things i really like i like the rigor

2159
01:13:06,310 --> 01:13:05,040
um i think the arguments against many

2160
01:13:07,990 --> 01:13:06,320
versions

2161
01:13:09,510 --> 01:13:08,000
and again this isn't a trivial thing to

2162
01:13:11,590 --> 01:13:09,520
say i just pointed out that

2163
01:13:12,870 --> 01:13:11,600
many neuroscientists i think adopt the

2164
01:13:14,550 --> 01:13:12,880
position that his

2165
01:13:16,630 --> 01:13:14,560
his arguments would be very cutting

2166
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:16,640
against and i want to acknowledge that

2167
01:13:19,510 --> 01:13:18,320
and i think that's important and to to

2168
01:13:21,110 --> 01:13:19,520
not say that's important i think is

2169
01:13:24,149 --> 01:13:21,120
disingenuous

2170
01:13:25,750 --> 01:13:24,159
and i do like the fact that he

2171
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:25,760
is trying to bridge between the

2172
01:13:30,070 --> 01:13:27,600
continental and the anglo-american

2173
01:13:31,510 --> 01:13:30,080
tradition by integrating an analytic

2174
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:31,520
argument with much tighter

2175
01:13:34,950 --> 01:13:33,360
phenomenological investigation

2176
01:13:36,630 --> 01:13:34,960
i think that's all those are i think

2177
01:13:38,550 --> 01:13:36,640
methodologically that's a very important

2178
01:13:40,149 --> 01:13:38,560
thing to do

2179
01:13:41,830 --> 01:13:40,159
bernardo and i don't have anything

2180
01:13:42,310 --> 01:13:41,840
against heated debate in the least that

2181
01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:42,320
is that

2182
01:13:45,669 --> 01:13:43,760
actually what goes on behind closed

2183
01:13:47,350 --> 01:13:45,679
doors and academia and i

2184
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:47,360
no but i want i just want to thank you

2185
01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:50,000
for doing that i i mean i think it's

2186
01:13:53,350 --> 01:13:51,840
i think it's important to to

2187
01:13:55,189 --> 01:13:53,360
periodically do what you just did which

2188
01:13:58,950 --> 01:13:55,199
is to step back and regroup

2189
01:14:00,630 --> 01:13:58,960
and see what i mean it's it's it's a

2190
01:14:02,070 --> 01:14:00,640
sterile thing if we're not capable of

2191
01:14:03,590 --> 01:14:02,080
listening and potentially learning from

2192
01:14:07,510 --> 01:14:03,600
each other

2193
01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:07,520
okay so bernardo well

2194
01:14:14,310 --> 01:14:10,800
i think uh john's focus

2195
01:14:17,590 --> 01:14:14,320
on what he calls the meaning crisis is

2196
01:14:20,070 --> 01:14:17,600
the single most important

2197
01:14:21,590 --> 01:14:20,080
and most devastating problem and that we

2198
01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:21,600
as a species

2199
01:14:28,630 --> 01:14:25,120
have today and by highlighting that

2200
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:28,640
and and offering fairly practical ways

2201
01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:29,280
of

2202
01:14:33,270 --> 01:14:32,000
addressing that problem avenues for

2203
01:14:36,709 --> 01:14:33,280
trying to get out of it

2204
01:14:37,830 --> 01:14:36,719
by restoring the role of myth uh by

2205
01:14:40,709 --> 01:14:37,840
taking

2206
01:14:42,709 --> 01:14:40,719
our phenomenology our experiential world

2207
01:14:44,070 --> 01:14:42,719
seriously and not dismissing it as just

2208
01:14:45,910 --> 01:14:44,080
an epic phenomenon

2209
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:45,920
i think that attempt to solve the

2210
01:14:49,110 --> 01:14:48,000
biggest problem we face today as a

2211
01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:49,120
species

2212
01:14:54,830 --> 01:14:52,159
that alone makes him and his work one of

2213
01:14:56,070 --> 01:14:54,840
the most important people alive today i

2214
01:14:57,990 --> 01:14:56,080
think

2215
01:14:59,189 --> 01:14:58,000
well thank you bernardo that's very high

2216
01:15:03,110 --> 01:14:59,199
praise um

2217
01:15:04,630 --> 01:15:03,120
um it's precisely because i suck on that

2218
01:15:06,870 --> 01:15:04,640
i think many of the people in the chat

2219
01:15:09,270 --> 01:15:06,880
second that but they would also

2220
01:15:10,950 --> 01:15:09,280
credit you with that too bernardo i i

2221
01:15:12,149 --> 01:15:10,960
yeah i i wanted to i wanted to return

2222
01:15:15,669 --> 01:15:12,159
the compliment i think

2223
01:15:17,430 --> 01:15:15,679
trying to get we i think we agree on

2224
01:15:18,310 --> 01:15:17,440
this we may not agree where we end but

2225
01:15:20,070 --> 01:15:18,320
we agreed that

2226
01:15:22,550 --> 01:15:20,080
the meeting crisis is not going to be

2227
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:22,560
solved at sort of the political

2228
01:15:27,189 --> 01:15:25,520
uh market level it's it it goes down to

2229
01:15:29,030 --> 01:15:27,199
our fundamental ontology

2230
01:15:30,870 --> 01:15:29,040
and it deals with fundamental aspects of

2231
01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:30,880
our ontology like subjectivity and

2232
01:15:34,149 --> 01:15:31,840
objectivity

2233
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:34,159
and that how how meaning is somehow

2234
01:15:37,430 --> 01:15:35,520
bound up with those

2235
01:15:39,189 --> 01:15:37,440
um and of the sense of self and i think

2236
01:15:42,310 --> 01:15:39,199
we agree on that

2237
01:15:45,990 --> 01:15:42,320
you're nodding so

2238
01:15:46,709 --> 01:15:46,000
yeah and so i think uh in in that sense

2239
01:15:50,550 --> 01:15:46,719
we're both

2240
01:15:53,669 --> 01:15:50,560
very critical of um a lot of

2241
01:15:56,709 --> 01:15:53,679
what i think are misplaced

2242
01:15:59,030 --> 01:15:56,719
and sometimes distracting attempts

2243
01:16:00,470 --> 01:15:59,040
to deal with the meaning crisis uh that

2244
01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:00,480
do not wrestle

2245
01:16:03,990 --> 01:16:02,800
with these deep problems i'm not i'm not

2246
01:16:05,030 --> 01:16:04,000
saying i don't think bernardo's saying

2247
01:16:06,630 --> 01:16:05,040
everybody has to be

2248
01:16:08,149 --> 01:16:06,640
you know an academic philosopher to

2249
01:16:11,990 --> 01:16:08,159
wrestle with the meaning crisis

2250
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:13,830
if we want to hone whatever ecologies

2251
01:16:16,709 --> 01:16:15,520
and practices we come up with to address

2252
01:16:20,390 --> 01:16:16,719
the meeting crisis

2253
01:16:21,990 --> 01:16:20,400
into a world view we have to do

2254
01:16:23,189 --> 01:16:22,000
something to our current world view to

2255
01:16:25,669 --> 01:16:23,199
get us to the place

2256
01:16:27,110 --> 01:16:25,679
where we have a world view that can

2257
01:16:31,189 --> 01:16:27,120
properly home

2258
01:16:32,790 --> 01:16:31,199
rehome the the ecologies and practices

2259
01:16:35,669 --> 01:16:32,800
and the experience of sacredness

2260
01:16:37,270 --> 01:16:35,679
and i think in that we also agree i am

2261
01:16:38,790 --> 01:16:37,280
so i want to be i want to be clear about

2262
01:16:42,149 --> 01:16:38,800
something here

2263
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:42,159
um um i i i'm not happy

2264
01:16:45,830 --> 01:16:44,159
i i thought i said this but i don't

2265
01:16:48,470 --> 01:16:45,840
think i emphasize i'm not i'm not trying

2266
01:16:50,470 --> 01:16:48,480
to countenance sort of the standard

2267
01:16:51,510 --> 01:16:50,480
scientific worldview model i'm willing

2268
01:16:54,070 --> 01:16:51,520
to uh

2269
01:16:55,510 --> 01:16:54,080
you know change my ontology quite a bit

2270
01:16:58,630 --> 01:16:55,520
i tried to convey that with

2271
01:17:00,149 --> 01:16:58,640
some of the things i've said and so i

2272
01:17:02,310 --> 01:17:00,159
think

2273
01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:02,320
the disagreement it might be more about

2274
01:17:07,270 --> 01:17:03,760
what are the changes

2275
01:17:10,390 --> 01:17:07,280
and how far should the changes go um so

2276
01:17:13,510 --> 01:17:10,400
um i think i think what bernardo's doing

2277
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:13,520
is important and i do i

2278
01:17:19,510 --> 01:17:17,040
i would not want anything i'm saying

2279
01:17:20,149 --> 01:17:19,520
the to be taken as meaning people should

2280
01:17:22,149 --> 01:17:20,159
not

2281
01:17:24,790 --> 01:17:22,159
wrestle seriously with his work i don't

2282
01:17:26,470 --> 01:17:24,800
i'm not trying to imply that at all

2283
01:17:27,910 --> 01:17:26,480
neither neither continue i interpret to

2284
01:17:31,030 --> 01:17:27,920
you that way uh

2285
01:17:34,470 --> 01:17:31,040
john can i can i continue

2286
01:17:37,510 --> 01:17:34,480
please do okay look i do think

2287
01:17:39,110 --> 01:17:37,520
that um our mainstream ontology plays a

2288
01:17:41,189 --> 01:17:39,120
role in this and i don't think it's a

2289
01:17:42,070 --> 01:17:41,199
positive role but i'm also quick to

2290
01:17:44,630 --> 01:17:42,080
admit

2291
01:17:45,110 --> 01:17:44,640
that it is one role it's not the whole

2292
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:45,120
story

2293
01:17:49,110 --> 01:17:46,560
there there are other things going on

2294
01:17:50,470 --> 01:17:49,120
and i think another enormous thing that

2295
01:17:52,950 --> 01:17:50,480
you point out

2296
01:17:54,630 --> 01:17:52,960
uh when you say that we over emphasize

2297
01:17:57,270 --> 01:17:54,640
propositional knowledge

2298
01:17:58,310 --> 01:17:57,280
knowledge of facts as distinct from

2299
01:18:00,470 --> 01:17:58,320
wisdom which is

2300
01:18:01,350 --> 01:18:00,480
very hard to define although you you

2301
01:18:03,830 --> 01:18:01,360
elaborate

2302
01:18:05,669 --> 01:18:03,840
extensively on how he actually can get a

2303
01:18:08,390 --> 01:18:05,679
grip on what wisdom is

2304
01:18:10,550 --> 01:18:08,400
but what is immediately clear is that it

2305
01:18:11,669 --> 01:18:10,560
entails a lot a lot more than

2306
01:18:14,149 --> 01:18:11,679
propositional

2307
01:18:15,189 --> 01:18:14,159
yes knowledge yes and we live in a

2308
01:18:18,950 --> 01:18:15,199
society

2309
01:18:21,830 --> 01:18:18,960
in which the people we

2310
01:18:23,910 --> 01:18:21,840
take direction from today the

2311
01:18:27,030 --> 01:18:23,920
spokespeople of science we see on

2312
01:18:30,070 --> 01:18:27,040
tv often um

2313
01:18:31,590 --> 01:18:30,080
they are and

2314
01:18:34,390 --> 01:18:31,600
sorry if i go too far in this

2315
01:18:37,830 --> 01:18:34,400
characterization but they are very often

2316
01:18:40,310 --> 01:18:37,840
psychically unbalanced um

2317
01:18:42,149 --> 01:18:40,320
one psychic function is taken as the

2318
01:18:45,510 --> 01:18:42,159
only one that matters

2319
01:18:48,390 --> 01:18:45,520
it's a kind of analytic rational

2320
01:18:50,470 --> 01:18:48,400
conceptual thinking and that is taken as

2321
01:18:53,430 --> 01:18:50,480
the only thing that is trustworthy

2322
01:18:55,189 --> 01:18:53,440
and they are challenged when it comes to

2323
01:18:55,910 --> 01:18:55,199
the richness of all the other psychic

2324
01:18:58,470 --> 01:18:55,920
functions

2325
01:18:59,030 --> 01:18:58,480
like intuition appreciation for art

2326
01:19:01,189 --> 01:18:59,040
sense

2327
01:19:03,669 --> 01:19:01,199
perception you know being grounded in

2328
01:19:07,110 --> 01:19:03,679
your senses as opposed to abstraction

2329
01:19:10,149 --> 01:19:07,120
um and and we don't see it we take them

2330
01:19:13,830 --> 01:19:10,159
as the new wise man and

2331
01:19:16,310 --> 01:19:13,840
uh and they are people who have large

2332
01:19:19,669 --> 01:19:16,320
chunks of the human psyche amputated

2333
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:19,679
from them and they have become our wise

2334
01:19:25,990 --> 01:19:22,880
men i i call it um

2335
01:19:29,270 --> 01:19:26,000
the uh idolatry of nerds and the word

2336
01:19:30,630 --> 01:19:29,280
nerd is a is appropriate uh i think uh

2337
01:19:33,910 --> 01:19:30,640
to be used here

2338
01:19:34,709 --> 01:19:33,920
and i think it's tragic that we've been

2339
01:19:37,830 --> 01:19:34,719
trying to

2340
01:19:40,149 --> 01:19:37,840
replace wisdom with

2341
01:19:41,669 --> 01:19:40,159
pure extensive encyclopedic

2342
01:19:44,070 --> 01:19:41,679
propositional knowledge

2343
01:19:44,950 --> 01:19:44,080
as if the latter were a substitute for

2344
01:19:48,950 --> 01:19:44,960
the former

2345
01:19:52,149 --> 01:19:48,960
and as if doing this could be justified

2346
01:19:55,669 --> 01:19:52,159
immediately by the lack of

2347
01:19:58,709 --> 01:19:55,679
absolute uh certainty that

2348
01:20:00,790 --> 01:19:58,719
that you can attach to wisdom yeah

2349
01:20:01,990 --> 01:20:00,800
i think that's very well said uh what

2350
01:20:04,070 --> 01:20:02,000
you've said there bernardo

2351
01:20:05,110 --> 01:20:04,080
i agree um and i mean i've argued for it

2352
01:20:07,990 --> 01:20:05,120
extensively

2353
01:20:08,950 --> 01:20:08,000
um which is part of what i what i was it

2354
01:20:10,310 --> 01:20:08,960
was

2355
01:20:11,590 --> 01:20:10,320
trying to point to where i said i

2356
01:20:13,350 --> 01:20:11,600
appreciate you trying to bring in a

2357
01:20:15,430 --> 01:20:13,360
phenomenological richness

2358
01:20:17,189 --> 01:20:15,440
uh to this uh the discussion we were

2359
01:20:20,950 --> 01:20:17,199
previously engaged in

2360
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:20,960
yeah i do think that the the recognition

2361
01:20:28,470 --> 01:20:24,080
of the significance and importance

2362
01:20:31,350 --> 01:20:28,480
um in two directions both

2363
01:20:31,990 --> 01:20:31,360
you know in terms of our ontology the

2364
01:20:34,229 --> 01:20:32,000
significance

2365
01:20:36,390 --> 01:20:34,239
of the non-propositional uh ways of

2366
01:20:39,110 --> 01:20:36,400
knowing and ways of being

2367
01:20:41,030 --> 01:20:39,120
in the psyche i think and then also the

2368
01:20:42,550 --> 01:20:41,040
the the increasing evidence

2369
01:20:45,189 --> 01:20:42,560
that it's though is those

2370
01:20:47,030 --> 01:20:45,199
non-propositional aspects of the psyche

2371
01:20:48,470 --> 01:20:47,040
and ways of knowing that contribute the

2372
01:20:51,110 --> 01:20:48,480
most to meaning

2373
01:20:51,669 --> 01:20:51,120
in a sense of meaning in life um and i

2374
01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:51,679
think

2375
01:20:56,149 --> 01:20:55,360
um that tyranny of the propositional or

2376
01:21:00,149 --> 01:20:56,159
the tyranny

2377
01:21:01,750 --> 01:21:00,159
the idolatry of the nerds um is not only

2378
01:21:03,590 --> 01:21:01,760
limiting our capacity to try and

2379
01:21:06,709 --> 01:21:03,600
understand these phenomena

2380
01:21:08,390 --> 01:21:06,719
and thereby create a world view to which

2381
01:21:09,430 --> 01:21:08,400
we can belong because we don't belong to

2382
01:21:12,629 --> 01:21:09,440
the current

2383
01:21:14,550 --> 01:21:12,639
current worldview that's i think

2384
01:21:17,270 --> 01:21:14,560
something we would also agree on i think

2385
01:21:21,590 --> 01:21:20,310
but also the the the just the fact that

2386
01:21:26,229 --> 01:21:21,600
it puts at

2387
01:21:30,709 --> 01:21:29,350
at risk of of all of the deleterious

2388
01:21:32,149 --> 01:21:30,719
effects of suffering

2389
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:32,159
a paucity of meaning in their life and

2390
01:21:36,390 --> 01:21:33,840
the symptomology of that i think

2391
01:21:37,750 --> 01:21:36,400
is very pervasive in our culture okay

2392
01:21:40,390 --> 01:21:37,760
let's get to the disagreements

2393
01:21:41,990 --> 01:21:40,400
again okay well i think we were talking

2394
01:21:45,590 --> 01:21:42,000
about the multiplicity of consciousness

2395
01:21:47,110 --> 01:21:45,600
or is it one well i just wanted to point

2396
01:21:50,149 --> 01:21:47,120
out though that

2397
01:21:52,870 --> 01:21:51,270
and i think this is important this is

2398
01:21:53,830 --> 01:21:52,880
very much like an in-family kind of

2399
01:21:56,790 --> 01:21:53,840
disagreement

2400
01:21:58,550 --> 01:21:56,800
uh that i i i don't want to presume i

2401
01:22:00,550 --> 01:21:58,560
just met bernardo but uh

2402
01:22:02,070 --> 01:22:00,560
bernardo i would say to you uh you know

2403
01:22:05,430 --> 01:22:02,080
everything you're saying here

2404
01:22:07,270 --> 01:22:05,440
um leads me to really appreciate the

2405
01:22:09,189 --> 01:22:07,280
motivation you're bringing to these more

2406
01:22:10,629 --> 01:22:09,199
sort of technical ontological

2407
01:22:12,950 --> 01:22:10,639
disagreements we're having

2408
01:22:14,790 --> 01:22:12,960
and i want to i just wanted to express

2409
01:22:16,390 --> 01:22:14,800
that appreciation before we return

2410
01:22:18,709 --> 01:22:16,400
back to potential debates because i

2411
01:22:22,470 --> 01:22:18,719
think that's important i mean

2412
01:22:23,430 --> 01:22:22,480
for me um

2413
01:22:25,350 --> 01:22:23,440
sorry i don't want to make this sound

2414
01:22:26,870 --> 01:22:25,360
pragmatic one of the things not only not

2415
01:22:29,750 --> 01:22:26,880
the only thing obviously there's the

2416
01:22:30,950 --> 01:22:29,760
own internal epistemic success but one

2417
01:22:33,430 --> 01:22:30,960
of the things

2418
01:22:34,950 --> 01:22:33,440
that would could potentially move me

2419
01:22:36,830 --> 01:22:34,960
more towards your ontology

2420
01:22:38,229 --> 01:22:36,840
is if i could see how it might more

2421
01:22:40,390 --> 01:22:38,239
readily

2422
01:22:41,750 --> 01:22:40,400
address some of the difficulties that

2423
01:22:43,590 --> 01:22:41,760
i'm trying to address

2424
01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:43,600
with my ontology with respect to the

2425
01:22:47,430 --> 01:22:45,120
meeting crisis um

2426
01:22:48,229 --> 01:22:47,440
and so that be something perhaps we

2427
01:22:50,950 --> 01:22:48,239
could also discuss

2428
01:22:51,669 --> 01:22:50,960
uh somewhere along the way can you

2429
01:22:55,030 --> 01:22:51,679
mention

2430
01:22:59,030 --> 01:22:55,040
two or three uh concrete points

2431
01:23:02,790 --> 01:22:59,040
um so uh so one of the things

2432
01:23:05,669 --> 01:23:02,800
that i've been trying to

2433
01:23:07,189 --> 01:23:05,679
do and this was something that you

2434
01:23:09,189 --> 01:23:07,199
admitted in your ontology

2435
01:23:10,550 --> 01:23:09,199
and then i got i swear i noted it but i

2436
01:23:13,270 --> 01:23:10,560
sort of got sidetracked in

2437
01:23:14,629 --> 01:23:13,280
being uh heated i guess uh you would you

2438
01:23:18,149 --> 01:23:14,639
admitted sort of

2439
01:23:21,510 --> 01:23:18,159
even within consciousness processes of

2440
01:23:22,149 --> 01:23:21,520
of filtering um and you you probably

2441
01:23:23,990 --> 01:23:22,159
know that

2442
01:23:25,350 --> 01:23:24,000
at the core of my work on like

2443
01:23:26,709 --> 01:23:25,360
intelligence as

2444
01:23:28,310 --> 01:23:26,719
distinct from consciousness although i

2445
01:23:29,510 --> 01:23:28,320
think these ultimately are related has

2446
01:23:31,270 --> 01:23:29,520
to do with this issue that i call

2447
01:23:32,950 --> 01:23:31,280
relevance realization which is

2448
01:23:34,390 --> 01:23:32,960
of all of the information available to

2449
01:23:36,790 --> 01:23:34,400
me i can't

2450
01:23:38,550 --> 01:23:36,800
contin and right end up all the

2451
01:23:40,470 --> 01:23:38,560
information available to me in my memory

2452
01:23:42,629 --> 01:23:40,480
and of all the possible sequences of

2453
01:23:43,430 --> 01:23:42,639
operations that's also combinatorial

2454
01:23:45,830 --> 01:23:43,440
explosive so

2455
01:23:47,350 --> 01:23:45,840
yet moment by moment i'm somehow

2456
01:23:50,709 --> 01:23:47,360
realizing

2457
01:23:52,310 --> 01:23:50,719
focusing on what's relevant basically

2458
01:23:54,149 --> 01:23:52,320
intelligently ignoring and it's a

2459
01:23:57,110 --> 01:23:54,159
constitutive part of my intelligence

2460
01:23:58,390 --> 01:23:57,120
most of that information that is not any

2461
01:24:01,510 --> 01:23:58,400
algorithmic process

2462
01:24:03,830 --> 01:24:01,520
and it is also it is always prey

2463
01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:03,840
to the deleterious effects of the bias

2464
01:24:07,830 --> 01:24:05,360
so the various things that make me

2465
01:24:10,390 --> 01:24:07,840
adaptive at this make me subject to bias

2466
01:24:11,669 --> 01:24:10,400
the self-deception um and we have

2467
01:24:13,350 --> 01:24:11,679
moments where

2468
01:24:15,430 --> 01:24:13,360
that self-correction comes out when we

2469
01:24:19,189 --> 01:24:15,440
have aha moments and insight

2470
01:24:22,390 --> 01:24:19,199
and so i happen to think that

2471
01:24:24,149 --> 01:24:22,400
that that relevance realization

2472
01:24:25,910 --> 01:24:24,159
um is a way in which we're dynamically

2473
01:24:27,669 --> 01:24:25,920
coupled to the world

2474
01:24:29,270 --> 01:24:27,679
um i can give that argument in more

2475
01:24:30,229 --> 01:24:29,280
depth later but i'm just trying to give

2476
01:24:33,270 --> 01:24:30,239
it just here

2477
01:24:36,149 --> 01:24:33,280
and i think that's that that

2478
01:24:36,629 --> 01:24:36,159
that underwrites our cognitive agency

2479
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:36,639
but

2480
01:24:41,510 --> 01:24:40,080
we also experience that connectedness as

2481
01:24:43,189 --> 01:24:41,520
deeply rewarding

2482
01:24:45,189 --> 01:24:43,199
and that reward is different from the

2483
01:24:46,950 --> 01:24:45,199
word of like of pleasure

2484
01:24:48,629 --> 01:24:46,960
it's the reward that we call meaning in

2485
01:24:49,910 --> 01:24:48,639
life which is also just different from

2486
01:24:53,189 --> 01:24:49,920
subjective well-being

2487
01:24:56,229 --> 01:24:53,199
and so i think our meaning in our that

2488
01:24:57,750 --> 01:24:56,239
sense that positive rewarding sense of

2489
01:24:58,870 --> 01:24:57,760
meaning in life and man will people do a

2490
01:25:00,550 --> 01:24:58,880
lot for meaning in life

2491
01:25:02,310 --> 01:25:00,560
they will set they will set they will

2492
01:25:03,189 --> 01:25:02,320
sacrifice a lot of pleasure and a lot of

2493
01:25:04,470 --> 01:25:03,199
contentment

2494
01:25:05,830 --> 01:25:04,480
in order to get meaning in life and they

2495
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:05,840
reliably do that for example when they

2496
01:25:08,629 --> 01:25:06,719
have a kid

2497
01:25:10,229 --> 01:25:08,639
because pleasure and subjective

2498
01:25:12,550 --> 01:25:10,239
well-being go down dramatically

2499
01:25:13,750 --> 01:25:12,560
but meaning and life go up significantly

2500
01:25:16,310 --> 01:25:13,760
absolutely so

2501
01:25:17,910 --> 01:25:16,320
yeah so i thought i think that that

2502
01:25:21,110 --> 01:25:17,920
connectedness

2503
01:25:25,189 --> 01:25:21,120
is central uh to

2504
01:25:27,430 --> 01:25:25,199
uh into meeting in life and then i

2505
01:25:28,229 --> 01:25:27,440
i use basically an evolutionary model of

2506
01:25:30,070 --> 01:25:28,239
trying to explain what that

2507
01:25:33,110 --> 01:25:30,080
connectedness is like there's something

2508
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:33,120
in our brain and

2509
01:25:35,350 --> 01:25:34,239
no that's the wrong way of putting it

2510
01:25:36,629 --> 01:25:35,360
there's something in the relationship

2511
01:25:39,030 --> 01:25:36,639
between the brain and the world

2512
01:25:41,030 --> 01:25:39,040
that is strongly analogous uh to

2513
01:25:42,229 --> 01:25:41,040
biological adaptation biological

2514
01:25:44,310 --> 01:25:42,239
adaptivity

2515
01:25:46,470 --> 01:25:44,320
and then there's something analogous to

2516
01:25:47,270 --> 01:25:46,480
how that evolves in a self-organizing

2517
01:25:50,149 --> 01:25:47,280
fashion

2518
01:25:51,910 --> 01:25:50,159
that we call intelligence and that helps

2519
01:25:52,470 --> 01:25:51,920
me to explain a lot of the progress i

2520
01:25:54,070 --> 01:25:52,480
see

2521
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:54,080
within artificial intelligence a lot of

2522
01:25:58,470 --> 01:25:56,159
the convergence i see within cognitive

2523
01:26:03,430 --> 01:25:58,480
science and cognitive psychology

2524
01:26:04,470 --> 01:26:03,440
and so i tend to see that in that way

2525
01:26:08,390 --> 01:26:04,480
and i'm wondering

2526
01:26:09,510 --> 01:26:08,400
if well i want to make it a genuine

2527
01:26:11,910 --> 01:26:09,520
question

2528
01:26:13,350 --> 01:26:11,920
is there a way in which your ontology

2529
01:26:15,990 --> 01:26:13,360
would speak to that

2530
01:26:17,350 --> 01:26:16,000
in a way that might be uh particularly

2531
01:26:18,470 --> 01:26:17,360
helpful i mean i'm not trying to put you

2532
01:26:19,830 --> 01:26:18,480
in a corner if it doesn't

2533
01:26:21,910 --> 01:26:19,840
i'm not i'm not saying oh well there

2534
01:26:24,310 --> 01:26:21,920
it's false i'm not doing that it does

2535
01:26:25,110 --> 01:26:24,320
it's a it's an open question it does i

2536
01:26:27,430 --> 01:26:25,120
mean that's

2537
01:26:29,750 --> 01:26:27,440
my motivation for for doing what i do i

2538
01:26:30,390 --> 01:26:29,760
i i don't do this just because i want to

2539
01:26:32,390 --> 01:26:30,400
win

2540
01:26:33,510 --> 01:26:32,400
an academic argument in a world of

2541
01:26:35,430 --> 01:26:33,520
abstractions and

2542
01:26:38,229 --> 01:26:35,440
academic journals yeah i totally get

2543
01:26:39,350 --> 01:26:38,239
that yeah i do it because i think it

2544
01:26:41,750 --> 01:26:39,360
makes a difference

2545
01:26:42,390 --> 01:26:41,760
i mean we it's not even clear to us

2546
01:26:45,510 --> 01:26:42,400
anymore

2547
01:26:46,310 --> 01:26:45,520
that the story we tell ourselves about

2548
01:26:49,350 --> 01:26:46,320
what we are

2549
01:26:51,189 --> 01:26:49,360
and what the world is and our role in it

2550
01:26:53,350 --> 01:26:51,199
is the key source of meaning in our

2551
01:26:54,149 --> 01:26:53,360
lives why are we not aware of this

2552
01:26:56,070 --> 01:26:54,159
anymore

2553
01:26:58,070 --> 01:26:56,080
and i think that's because of fluid

2554
01:27:00,470 --> 01:26:58,080
compensation to use a

2555
01:27:02,070 --> 01:27:00,480
technical term in psychology we are

2556
01:27:04,790 --> 01:27:02,080
fluid compensating

2557
01:27:05,590 --> 01:27:04,800
all over the place we've replaced

2558
01:27:10,070 --> 01:27:05,600
authentic

2559
01:27:12,229 --> 01:27:10,080
sources of meaning with self-validation

2560
01:27:13,110 --> 01:27:12,239
with the idea of leaving work behind

2561
01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:13,120
that survives

2562
01:27:18,229 --> 01:27:16,960
us with differentiating ourselves as

2563
01:27:20,950 --> 01:27:18,239
part of an elite group

2564
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:20,960
this happens a lot among scientists so

2565
01:27:26,470 --> 01:27:23,280
even if we adopt a worldview

2566
01:27:28,709 --> 01:27:26,480
that is flat and bleak as i would say

2567
01:27:30,470 --> 01:27:28,719
mainstream physicalism is not not

2568
01:27:31,430 --> 01:27:30,480
perhaps well certainly not your version

2569
01:27:33,510 --> 01:27:31,440
of physicalism

2570
01:27:36,470 --> 01:27:33,520
but the mainstream physicalist view that

2571
01:27:39,189 --> 01:27:36,480
consciousness doesn't even really exist

2572
01:27:41,030 --> 01:27:39,199
that is so flat and meaning draining and

2573
01:27:43,750 --> 01:27:41,040
bleak

2574
01:27:46,229 --> 01:27:43,760
but we don't notice that because we find

2575
01:27:47,510 --> 01:27:46,239
ways to fluid compensate and find other

2576
01:27:49,510 --> 01:27:47,520
sources of meaning i mean

2577
01:27:51,270 --> 01:27:49,520
when we killed god in the second half of

2578
01:27:55,270 --> 01:27:51,280
the 19th century we were

2579
01:27:57,990 --> 01:27:55,280
quick to erect another edifice of

2580
01:27:59,750 --> 01:27:58,000
meaning giving and and that has evolved

2581
01:28:01,750 --> 01:27:59,760
now and i'll link that to artificial

2582
01:28:03,629 --> 01:28:01,760
intelligence which you mentioned as well

2583
01:28:05,110 --> 01:28:03,639
that has evolved now into

2584
01:28:07,990 --> 01:28:05,120
singularitarianism

2585
01:28:09,910 --> 01:28:08,000
which is a purely physicalist religion

2586
01:28:12,550 --> 01:28:09,920
which postulates that if we

2587
01:28:15,270 --> 01:28:12,560
create a ai that can build a better

2588
01:28:17,669 --> 01:28:15,280
version of itself faster than we could

2589
01:28:18,790 --> 01:28:17,679
then that would uh accelerate the

2590
01:28:20,950 --> 01:28:18,800
evolution of ai

2591
01:28:22,470 --> 01:28:20,960
exponentially and then we would create a

2592
01:28:24,790 --> 01:28:22,480
de facto god

2593
01:28:26,790 --> 01:28:24,800
who would then take care of us and like

2594
01:28:29,350 --> 01:28:26,800
we take care of animals in a zoo

2595
01:28:30,709 --> 01:28:29,360
i mean that's the religious impulse uh

2596
01:28:32,870 --> 01:28:30,719
the search from meaning

2597
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:32,880
right there we never abandoned that

2598
01:28:36,629 --> 01:28:34,560
search for meaning even though we fluid

2599
01:28:40,070 --> 01:28:36,639
compensate and we find sort of

2600
01:28:42,790 --> 01:28:40,080
decoy targets for it but if you ask me

2601
01:28:45,270 --> 01:28:42,800
honestly where do i think it went wrong

2602
01:28:47,910 --> 01:28:45,280
i think it went wrong the moment we

2603
01:28:50,870 --> 01:28:47,920
started telling ourselves and believing

2604
01:28:51,910 --> 01:28:50,880
that the world we see is all there is to

2605
01:28:55,030 --> 01:28:51,920
the story

2606
01:28:56,629 --> 01:28:55,040
that the world is its own meaning as

2607
01:28:59,510 --> 01:28:56,639
opposed to being

2608
01:29:01,030 --> 01:28:59,520
an image of something else deeper as

2609
01:29:02,709 --> 01:29:01,040
opposed to being

2610
01:29:04,550 --> 01:29:02,719
how the world as it is in itself

2611
01:29:07,669 --> 01:29:04,560
presents itself to us but

2612
01:29:08,470 --> 01:29:07,679
there is this extra dimension of depth

2613
01:29:10,550 --> 01:29:08,480
and meaning

2614
01:29:11,910 --> 01:29:10,560
the images that we call the world are

2615
01:29:14,709 --> 01:29:11,920
pointing to something

2616
01:29:16,070 --> 01:29:14,719
beyond themselves a point explain which

2617
01:29:17,590 --> 01:29:16,080
music meaning

2618
01:29:19,270 --> 01:29:17,600
sorry to interject can you explain what

2619
01:29:22,310 --> 01:29:19,280
you mean when you say the world is it

2620
01:29:25,830 --> 01:29:22,320
itself is meaning uh

2621
01:29:29,110 --> 01:29:25,840
today under physicalist anthology um

2622
01:29:31,750 --> 01:29:29,120
matter is all there is

2623
01:29:32,470 --> 01:29:31,760
so if you have a material world around

2624
01:29:34,550 --> 01:29:32,480
you

2625
01:29:36,070 --> 01:29:34,560
then there is no extra dimension of

2626
01:29:38,870 --> 01:29:36,080
depth to that world

2627
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:38,880
that world is all there is so whatever

2628
01:29:44,950 --> 01:29:39,760
meaning

2629
01:29:47,590 --> 01:29:44,960
because it's not pointing at anything

2630
01:29:50,629 --> 01:29:47,600
else it's not representing anything else

2631
01:29:51,270 --> 01:29:50,639
because it's all there is and this is a

2632
01:29:54,070 --> 01:29:51,280
notion

2633
01:29:55,270 --> 01:29:54,080
that is today called a naive realism in

2634
01:29:59,189 --> 01:29:55,280
philosophy

2635
01:30:02,470 --> 01:29:59,199
that this

2636
01:30:04,470 --> 01:30:02,480
is absolutely and categorically wrong

2637
01:30:05,510 --> 01:30:04,480
because one evolution wouldn't have

2638
01:30:08,070 --> 01:30:05,520
given us

2639
01:30:09,510 --> 01:30:08,080
a transparent windscreen to see the

2640
01:30:11,510 --> 01:30:09,520
world as it actually is

2641
01:30:12,950 --> 01:30:11,520
evolution doesn't do that evolution

2642
01:30:14,790 --> 01:30:12,960
equips us to survive

2643
01:30:16,950 --> 01:30:14,800
so evolution would would have given us a

2644
01:30:18,550 --> 01:30:16,960
dashboard of dials not a transparent

2645
01:30:21,830 --> 01:30:18,560
windscreen into the world

2646
01:30:25,110 --> 01:30:21,840
we also know from hardcore neuroscience

2647
01:30:27,110 --> 01:30:25,120
that if our inner representational

2648
01:30:29,750 --> 01:30:27,120
states you know our perceptions

2649
01:30:32,070 --> 01:30:29,760
if those states mirrored the states of

2650
01:30:34,790 --> 01:30:32,080
the world as it is in itself

2651
01:30:36,629 --> 01:30:34,800
our inner states would be too dispersed

2652
01:30:37,750 --> 01:30:36,639
and we would basically dissolve into an

2653
01:30:39,350 --> 01:30:37,760
entropic soup

2654
01:30:41,510 --> 01:30:39,360
we wouldn't be able to maintain our

2655
01:30:44,390 --> 01:30:41,520
structural and dynamical integrity

2656
01:30:44,950 --> 01:30:44,400
so we have to encode the information we

2657
01:30:47,110 --> 01:30:44,960
have about

2658
01:30:49,430 --> 01:30:47,120
the world in an inferential manner in

2659
01:30:51,750 --> 01:30:49,440
order to maintain our physical integrity

2660
01:30:52,709 --> 01:30:51,760
so we know that the world as it is in

2661
01:30:55,590 --> 01:30:52,719
itself

2662
01:30:57,030 --> 01:30:55,600
is not what we see or even measure

2663
01:30:59,910 --> 01:30:57,040
through instrumentation

2664
01:31:01,350 --> 01:30:59,920
because even measurement follows the

2665
01:31:03,270 --> 01:31:01,360
paradigm

2666
01:31:05,189 --> 01:31:03,280
of perception we you have to see the

2667
01:31:07,110 --> 01:31:05,199
output of the measurement instrument

2668
01:31:09,030 --> 01:31:07,120
or you have to see a histogram on the

2669
01:31:11,110 --> 01:31:09,040
screen i mean when i was at cern that

2670
01:31:13,830 --> 01:31:11,120
was my life it was looking at histograms

2671
01:31:15,990 --> 01:31:13,840
and calling them particles

2672
01:31:18,390 --> 01:31:16,000
the world as it is in itself is not

2673
01:31:20,229 --> 01:31:18,400
available to our direct inspection

2674
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:20,239
the only way to know it as it is in

2675
01:31:23,990 --> 01:31:22,080
itself is to be it

2676
01:31:25,990 --> 01:31:24,000
and kant already said that and

2677
01:31:29,030 --> 01:31:26,000
schopenhauer echoed that

2678
01:31:31,590 --> 01:31:29,040
um so if we recover

2679
01:31:32,870 --> 01:31:31,600
if we put back into our explicit meta

2680
01:31:34,870 --> 01:31:32,880
conscious awareness

2681
01:31:38,470 --> 01:31:34,880
that this is what's going on then the

2682
01:31:39,669 --> 01:31:38,480
world regains a a dimension of depth and

2683
01:31:41,910 --> 01:31:39,679
mystery

2684
01:31:44,709 --> 01:31:41,920
and your life in it now has a meaning

2685
01:31:46,550 --> 01:31:44,719
not only the world as it is in itself

2686
01:31:48,470 --> 01:31:46,560
is the ultimate meaning which you have

2687
01:31:49,590 --> 01:31:48,480
to interpret out of how the world

2688
01:31:51,510 --> 01:31:49,600
presents itself to you

2689
01:31:53,590 --> 01:31:51,520
out of the dials that you have that

2690
01:31:57,990 --> 01:31:53,600
evolution has given you

2691
01:31:59,750 --> 01:31:58,000
even your role in it is now mysterious

2692
01:32:01,430 --> 01:31:59,760
because you are in the world even though

2693
01:32:02,070 --> 01:32:01,440
you don't see it as it is in itself you

2694
01:32:05,430 --> 01:32:02,080
know that you

2695
01:32:08,790 --> 01:32:05,440
are in it uh and that dimension of

2696
01:32:11,110 --> 01:32:08,800
mystery and meaning i think is this so

2697
01:32:12,709 --> 01:32:11,120
losing contact with that dimension is

2698
01:32:13,510 --> 01:32:12,719
one of the key sources of the meaning

2699
01:32:17,270 --> 01:32:13,520
crisis

2700
01:32:21,350 --> 01:32:17,280
and one way to recover that is to take

2701
01:32:23,669 --> 01:32:21,360
myth myth seriously not literally

2702
01:32:27,030 --> 01:32:23,679
but seriously and we've lost the art of

2703
01:32:29,189 --> 01:32:27,040
knowing how to do this

2704
01:32:30,390 --> 01:32:29,199
so i think that was fantastic and

2705
01:32:33,510 --> 01:32:30,400
beautifully said

2706
01:32:33,990 --> 01:32:33,520
uh yeah i think well i've already said

2707
01:32:37,030 --> 01:32:34,000
i'm a

2708
01:32:39,189 --> 01:32:37,040
i i think that flat ontologies

2709
01:32:41,189 --> 01:32:39,199
are incoherent theoretically and i think

2710
01:32:42,870 --> 01:32:41,199
they they make their adherence

2711
01:32:45,110 --> 01:32:42,880
engage in ongoing performative

2712
01:32:47,669 --> 01:32:45,120
contradiction uh all the time

2713
01:32:50,149 --> 01:32:47,679
uh in which like you said the scientist

2714
01:32:51,830 --> 01:32:50,159
espouses a meaningless universe as he

2715
01:32:53,990 --> 01:32:51,840
desperate or he or she desperately tries

2716
01:32:55,430 --> 01:32:54,000
to climb to the top of whatever status

2717
01:32:56,870 --> 01:32:55,440
hierarchy they belong to

2718
01:32:58,629 --> 01:32:56,880
and that's all kinds of performative

2719
01:33:00,709 --> 01:32:58,639
contradiction so i think there's

2720
01:33:01,830 --> 01:33:00,719
incoherence and there's performative

2721
01:33:04,149 --> 01:33:01,840
contradiction so

2722
01:33:05,750 --> 01:33:04,159
yeah i don't think that flat ontologies

2723
01:33:07,990 --> 01:33:05,760
um i i think are

2724
01:33:09,430 --> 01:33:08,000
are viable and then i think the idea of

2725
01:33:11,669 --> 01:33:09,440
recovering

2726
01:33:13,189 --> 01:33:11,679
i like what you said a depth dimension

2727
01:33:16,390 --> 01:33:13,199
uh to it

2728
01:33:20,950 --> 01:33:16,400
uh to our ontology is important

2729
01:33:24,709 --> 01:33:20,960
um so i i i tend to think

2730
01:33:30,470 --> 01:33:24,719
that that depth dimension comes in

2731
01:33:30,480 --> 01:33:34,870
well kind of what i was saying before

2732
01:33:38,790 --> 01:33:37,910
that like i'm sorry i'm just worried

2733
01:33:40,870 --> 01:33:38,800
about i don't want to

2734
01:33:42,550 --> 01:33:40,880
sound overly conscient because i don't i

2735
01:33:43,669 --> 01:33:42,560
i disagree with kant's idea that we have

2736
01:33:45,430 --> 01:33:43,679
no access

2737
01:33:46,709 --> 01:33:45,440
uh i disagree with that too by the way

2738
01:33:48,390 --> 01:33:46,719
but um yeah okay

2739
01:33:50,470 --> 01:33:48,400
yeah yeah okay thank you for that thank

2740
01:33:51,830 --> 01:33:50,480
you for that and so let's let

2741
01:33:53,750 --> 01:33:51,840
that so let's say we always have

2742
01:33:55,590 --> 01:33:53,760
filtered access or something like that

2743
01:33:57,590 --> 01:33:55,600
and and i think that that follows

2744
01:34:00,870 --> 01:33:57,600
directly i think that's something

2745
01:34:02,629 --> 01:34:00,880
that i uh i argue for and perhaps even

2746
01:34:03,990 --> 01:34:02,639
presuppose in the account of relevance

2747
01:34:06,149 --> 01:34:04,000
realization that i just

2748
01:34:07,669 --> 01:34:06,159
uh talked about by the way i would argue

2749
01:34:11,350 --> 01:34:07,679
this is the hardest pro

2750
01:34:13,030 --> 01:34:11,360
artificial intelligence almost as hard

2751
01:34:15,189 --> 01:34:13,040
as the heart problem of consciousness i

2752
01:34:16,790 --> 01:34:15,199
think relevance is a very hard problem

2753
01:34:18,149 --> 01:34:16,800
um and i do happen to think the two

2754
01:34:19,430 --> 01:34:18,159
problems are related and maybe we could

2755
01:34:23,270 --> 01:34:19,440
talk about that at some point

2756
01:34:23,990 --> 01:34:23,280
uh but um i do think that reality in

2757
01:34:26,870 --> 01:34:24,000
that sense

2758
01:34:27,990 --> 01:34:26,880
is other than it's the way see the

2759
01:34:30,470 --> 01:34:28,000
obviousness

2760
01:34:31,350 --> 01:34:30,480
of our experience is exactly what we

2761
01:34:34,149 --> 01:34:31,360
need to

2762
01:34:35,350 --> 01:34:34,159
explain rather than take as the basis

2763
01:34:36,950 --> 01:34:35,360
for our explanation

2764
01:34:38,870 --> 01:34:36,960
and i think by the time we've gotten to

2765
01:34:41,910 --> 01:34:38,880
the obviousness of experience

2766
01:34:43,910 --> 01:34:41,920
we've uh you know our brain mind and its

2767
01:34:47,030 --> 01:34:43,920
interaction with our brain body world

2768
01:34:49,750 --> 01:34:47,040
right interaction has has so

2769
01:34:51,590 --> 01:34:49,760
um filtered things that we have avoided

2770
01:34:53,109 --> 01:34:51,600
the combinatorially explosive nature of

2771
01:34:56,790 --> 01:34:53,119
reality itself

2772
01:34:58,070 --> 01:34:56,800
um and so that's why

2773
01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:58,080
and i've been trying to make an argument

2774
01:35:01,030 --> 01:35:00,000
and this is a bit of a side thing of

2775
01:35:03,189 --> 01:35:01,040
reconfiguring

2776
01:35:04,390 --> 01:35:03,199
the sense of what you call mystery and i

2777
01:35:07,109 --> 01:35:04,400
use that term

2778
01:35:09,030 --> 01:35:07,119
um i mean i i'm deeply influenced by

2779
01:35:09,910 --> 01:35:09,040
gabriel marcel's work on ontological

2780
01:35:13,109 --> 01:35:09,920
mystery

2781
01:35:14,229 --> 01:35:13,119
problem we frame it and then we can

2782
01:35:15,910 --> 01:35:14,239
bring clarity to it

2783
01:35:17,990 --> 01:35:15,920
in a mystery we find that the framing

2784
01:35:18,709 --> 01:35:18,000
itself is problematic and we keep doing

2785
01:35:20,229 --> 01:35:18,719
this

2786
01:35:21,910 --> 01:35:20,239
and right and we keep expanding the

2787
01:35:23,350 --> 01:35:21,920
frames and then we realize oh [\h__\h]

2788
01:35:25,189 --> 01:35:23,360
it's bigger than i could possibly

2789
01:35:26,229 --> 01:35:25,199
accommodate and we get experiences of

2790
01:35:28,870 --> 01:35:26,239
awe

2791
01:35:30,709 --> 01:35:28,880
which are tremendously efficacious for

2792
01:35:31,350 --> 01:35:30,719
transforming individuals at the kind of

2793
01:35:32,870 --> 01:35:31,360
level

2794
01:35:34,709 --> 01:35:32,880
we're talking about conducive to the

2795
01:35:36,709 --> 01:35:34,719
cultivation of virtue and wisdom

2796
01:35:38,390 --> 01:35:36,719
um and doing experimental work on that

2797
01:35:42,629 --> 01:35:38,400
right now and so i

2798
01:35:44,070 --> 01:35:42,639
i i try to think and maybe this goes

2799
01:35:44,790 --> 01:35:44,080
back to some of the points i've made

2800
01:35:46,950 --> 01:35:44,800
earlier

2801
01:35:49,030 --> 01:35:46,960
i try to recon we conceive of that

2802
01:35:50,310 --> 01:35:49,040
mystery and sacredness not as completion

2803
01:35:53,669 --> 01:35:50,320
or perfection

2804
01:35:55,109 --> 01:35:53,679
uh because but as in sense as an

2805
01:35:57,030 --> 01:35:55,119
inexhaustibleness

2806
01:35:58,629 --> 01:35:57,040
there and so there's a bit of a

2807
01:36:00,149 --> 01:35:58,639
neoplatonic spin on this

2808
01:36:01,830 --> 01:36:00,159
there's an inexhaustible fountain of

2809
01:36:05,750 --> 01:36:01,840
intelligibility for us

2810
01:36:08,470 --> 01:36:05,760
um so we like as we uncover more

2811
01:36:09,270 --> 01:36:08,480
uh as uh right in the trajectory into

2812
01:36:11,910 --> 01:36:09,280
the mystery

2813
01:36:12,310 --> 01:36:11,920
it seems to have an underlying order to

2814
01:36:13,590 --> 01:36:12,320
it

2815
01:36:16,149 --> 01:36:13,600
an underlying pattern and

2816
01:36:19,109 --> 01:36:16,159
intelligibility to it which does not

2817
01:36:20,229 --> 01:36:19,119
it does not does not close off the fact

2818
01:36:22,629 --> 01:36:20,239
that there's going to be more that's

2819
01:36:25,510 --> 01:36:22,639
going to surprise us

2820
01:36:27,109 --> 01:36:25,520
and so i tend to think of the sacredness

2821
01:36:28,229 --> 01:36:27,119
as being exactly that horizon of

2822
01:36:30,470 --> 01:36:28,239
intelligibility

2823
01:36:32,390 --> 01:36:30,480
where we can look back and see all the

2824
01:36:33,430 --> 01:36:32,400
fields of intelligibility that have

2825
01:36:36,390 --> 01:36:33,440
arisen for us

2826
01:36:37,990 --> 01:36:36,400
but we have a tremendous sense of but

2827
01:36:40,470 --> 01:36:38,000
we're nowhere near and we'll never

2828
01:36:41,030 --> 01:36:40,480
be anywhere near exhausting this it's

2829
01:36:44,950 --> 01:36:41,040
kind of

2830
01:36:45,669 --> 01:36:44,960
shellings the finite always longing for

2831
01:36:48,070 --> 01:36:45,679
the infinite

2832
01:36:50,229 --> 01:36:48,080
uh that's the sense of sacredness and

2833
01:36:51,830 --> 01:36:50,239
some of the early uh post continents

2834
01:36:53,750 --> 01:36:51,840
uh that's that's what i'm trying to

2835
01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:53,760
argue for now and i think

2836
01:37:00,229 --> 01:36:57,600
part of the thing that i'm critical of

2837
01:37:01,830 --> 01:37:00,239
of the cartesian paradigm which also

2838
01:37:03,910 --> 01:37:01,840
gets taken into

2839
01:37:05,430 --> 01:37:03,920
uh the the modernity of the

2840
01:37:07,830 --> 01:37:05,440
interpretation of religion

2841
01:37:10,310 --> 01:37:07,840
is this idea of certainty and completion

2842
01:37:12,629 --> 01:37:10,320
and closure

2843
01:37:14,470 --> 01:37:12,639
as the things that we are most seeking

2844
01:37:16,790 --> 01:37:14,480
and i don't think that is the case

2845
01:37:17,590 --> 01:37:16,800
i think that humans want i mean what we

2846
01:37:19,350 --> 01:37:17,600
know from

2847
01:37:20,950 --> 01:37:19,360
the meaning in life literatures human

2848
01:37:22,229 --> 01:37:20,960
beings want to be connected to something

2849
01:37:24,790 --> 01:37:22,239
larger than themselves

2850
01:37:26,870 --> 01:37:24,800
and to matter to it uh to fit to it

2851
01:37:30,149 --> 01:37:26,880
rather than have it fit to them

2852
01:37:31,590 --> 01:37:30,159
and so um sorry i've spoken too long

2853
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:31,600
but that would be that's my attempt to

2854
01:37:35,510 --> 01:37:33,840
attempt to to say something i think

2855
01:37:38,550 --> 01:37:35,520
maybe convergent with you

2856
01:37:40,229 --> 01:37:38,560
young said uh the only important

2857
01:37:42,149 --> 01:37:40,239
question is whether we are related to

2858
01:37:44,870 --> 01:37:42,159
something infinite or not

2859
01:37:45,830 --> 01:37:44,880
and he nailed it yeah yeah yeah yeah

2860
01:37:47,430 --> 01:37:45,840
yeah

2861
01:37:50,149 --> 01:37:47,440
and the way we long for it and the way

2862
01:37:54,390 --> 01:37:50,159
that has a normative impact

2863
01:37:57,430 --> 01:37:54,400
on um the way we live our lives

2864
01:38:00,709 --> 01:37:57,440
and i think again we agree on this that

2865
01:38:01,270 --> 01:38:00,719
we are we are we both if you allow me to

2866
01:38:05,510 --> 01:38:01,280
speak for you

2867
01:38:07,189 --> 01:38:05,520
we're both sort of distressed by the

2868
01:38:09,510 --> 01:38:07,199
well i'll use it in the psychological

2869
01:38:11,350 --> 01:38:09,520
sense maybe maybe in your ontological

2870
01:38:13,510 --> 01:38:11,360
but the dissociation between the

2871
01:38:14,870 --> 01:38:13,520
worldview people espouse and believe in

2872
01:38:15,510 --> 01:38:14,880
and the way they're trying to live their

2873
01:38:17,510 --> 01:38:15,520
lives

2874
01:38:18,550 --> 01:38:17,520
and that disjunction comes that

2875
01:38:21,109 --> 01:38:18,560
dissociation

2876
01:38:21,669 --> 01:38:21,119
comes at terrible cost terrible costs i

2877
01:38:24,790 --> 01:38:21,679
mean

2878
01:38:27,030 --> 01:38:24,800
uh the uh and the way social media is

2879
01:38:28,950 --> 01:38:27,040
is uh doing exactly the opposite of what

2880
01:38:29,270 --> 01:38:28,960
it promised it's accelerating all of

2881
01:38:31,430 --> 01:38:29,280
this

2882
01:38:32,470 --> 01:38:31,440
rather than alleviating it any function

2883
01:38:33,910 --> 01:38:32,480
because it's not getting it

2884
01:38:36,790 --> 01:38:33,920
at the root of the problem there i'll be

2885
01:38:38,790 --> 01:38:36,800
quiet bernardo so you can say so

2886
01:38:40,950 --> 01:38:38,800
i can i can listen to you for a long

2887
01:38:42,149 --> 01:38:40,960
time because this subject is very close

2888
01:38:42,790 --> 01:38:42,159
to my heart i wanted to ask you a

2889
01:38:44,950 --> 01:38:42,800
question but

2890
01:38:46,070 --> 01:38:44,960
before i do that let's just a quick

2891
01:38:49,109 --> 01:38:46,080
clarification

2892
01:38:51,990 --> 01:38:49,119
um i i also am not with kant

2893
01:38:53,750 --> 01:38:52,000
that uh we can never have any sort of

2894
01:38:54,390 --> 01:38:53,760
access to the newman i think he went too

2895
01:38:57,510 --> 01:38:54,400
far

2896
01:38:59,109 --> 01:38:57,520
i think through perception we cannot

2897
01:39:00,870 --> 01:38:59,119
have access to the nominal

2898
01:39:02,310 --> 01:39:00,880
but the key insight that he missed and

2899
01:39:05,430 --> 01:39:02,320
schopenhauer added

2900
01:39:08,629 --> 01:39:05,440
uh very quickly after kant was that

2901
01:39:10,709 --> 01:39:08,639
we are our own numina

2902
01:39:12,390 --> 01:39:10,719
so through introspection i can't access

2903
01:39:12,870 --> 01:39:12,400
my numeral and since i'm part of the

2904
01:39:15,750 --> 01:39:12,880
world

2905
01:39:17,109 --> 01:39:15,760
i can make educated inferences about the

2906
01:39:19,750 --> 01:39:17,119
numina out there

2907
01:39:21,350 --> 01:39:19,760
because i'm also sort of material made

2908
01:39:22,790 --> 01:39:21,360
of matter at least as far as perception

2909
01:39:25,109 --> 01:39:22,800
goes

2910
01:39:26,950 --> 01:39:25,119
so if the matter in my body is the

2911
01:39:28,950 --> 01:39:26,960
representation of my will

2912
01:39:31,189 --> 01:39:28,960
then i can conclude the world as it is

2913
01:39:33,590 --> 01:39:31,199
in itself is also something like

2914
01:39:35,430 --> 01:39:33,600
the will so i think there is a channel

2915
01:39:36,950 --> 01:39:35,440
to the newman and that's introspection

2916
01:39:38,310 --> 01:39:36,960
and then that's what the world's

2917
01:39:39,910 --> 01:39:38,320
religious traditions have been saying

2918
01:39:41,430 --> 01:39:39,920
all along but the question i wanted to

2919
01:39:44,470 --> 01:39:41,440
ask you is this i i

2920
01:39:47,270 --> 01:39:44,480
i have some clinical psychologists

2921
01:39:48,149 --> 01:39:47,280
that i count as friends and we have

2922
01:39:50,229 --> 01:39:48,159
discussions

2923
01:39:51,189 --> 01:39:50,239
now and then and the subject that always

2924
01:39:53,109 --> 01:39:51,199
comes is

2925
01:39:55,270 --> 01:39:53,119
especially when you have a deaf

2926
01:39:56,790 --> 01:39:55,280
psychologist a psychologist oriented to

2927
01:39:59,030 --> 01:39:56,800
the depth as opposed to

2928
01:39:59,830 --> 01:39:59,040
behaviorism or anything like this or or

2929
01:40:02,870 --> 01:39:59,840
anyway

2930
01:40:05,350 --> 01:40:02,880
um the question i always ask is

2931
01:40:06,830 --> 01:40:05,360
if the task is to help your patient

2932
01:40:09,669 --> 01:40:06,840
recover

2933
01:40:12,550 --> 01:40:09,679
meaning can that be

2934
01:40:14,149 --> 01:40:12,560
done in the absence of a certain

2935
01:40:16,550 --> 01:40:14,159
ontological position

2936
01:40:18,390 --> 01:40:16,560
can you be ontologically neutral and

2937
01:40:19,030 --> 01:40:18,400
because psychologists talk about giving

2938
01:40:21,830 --> 01:40:19,040
meaning

2939
01:40:22,629 --> 01:40:21,840
uh maybe it's a literal translation from

2940
01:40:24,470 --> 01:40:22,639
dutch

2941
01:40:26,550 --> 01:40:24,480
but uh i think it works in english as

2942
01:40:28,950 --> 01:40:26,560
well how do you give meaning and

2943
01:40:30,550 --> 01:40:28,960
and and my feeling is that if if i am a

2944
01:40:31,109 --> 01:40:30,560
patient and i have done therapy by the

2945
01:40:35,350 --> 01:40:31,119
way

2946
01:40:37,189 --> 01:40:35,360
feeling it's like i'm trying to cheat

2947
01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:37,199
myself because either meaning is really

2948
01:40:40,790 --> 01:40:38,320
there

2949
01:40:41,669 --> 01:40:40,800
or it's not and my giving meaning to it

2950
01:40:43,510 --> 01:40:41,679
is some kind of

2951
01:40:45,109 --> 01:40:43,520
self-deception it doesn't work out for

2952
01:40:47,270 --> 01:40:45,119
me so do you think

2953
01:40:50,070 --> 01:40:47,280
we can solve the meaning crisis without

2954
01:40:53,109 --> 01:40:50,080
addressing ontology head-on

2955
01:40:54,790 --> 01:40:53,119
um so first of all i'm going to

2956
01:40:56,470 --> 01:40:54,800
i want to refund the first thing you

2957
01:40:57,590 --> 01:40:56,480
said as a way of preparing for my answer

2958
01:40:59,750 --> 01:40:57,600
the second thing

2959
01:41:00,709 --> 01:40:59,760
so i think the key and the most

2960
01:41:04,070 --> 01:41:00,719
foundational

2961
01:41:04,950 --> 01:41:04,080
knowing which i call participatory

2962
01:41:08,390 --> 01:41:04,960
knowing which i take

2963
01:41:10,070 --> 01:41:08,400
from ultimately inspired by plato um

2964
01:41:11,430 --> 01:41:10,080
but you but you can see it either you

2965
01:41:12,390 --> 01:41:11,440
can see it in all kinds of plateness and

2966
01:41:14,070 --> 01:41:12,400
i count young

2967
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:14,080
as a platonus he's i think he's

2968
01:41:17,750 --> 01:41:16,080
basically the plato of the inner psyche

2969
01:41:19,270 --> 01:41:17,760
and the archetypes are the forums and i

2970
01:41:19,669 --> 01:41:19,280
think you could make a good argument for

2971
01:41:22,870 --> 01:41:19,679
that

2972
01:41:24,149 --> 01:41:22,880
neoplatonism and gnosticism

2973
01:41:26,950 --> 01:41:24,159
things like that that's that but that's

2974
01:41:31,830 --> 01:41:26,960
an exegetical claim uh but uh but

2975
01:41:33,430 --> 01:41:31,840
um right but it's this notion

2976
01:41:35,350 --> 01:41:33,440
and you and the reason why i think it's

2977
01:41:36,870 --> 01:41:35,360
important is i see convergence from

2978
01:41:38,629 --> 01:41:36,880
as you said other religious traditions

2979
01:41:40,550 --> 01:41:38,639
like so when i i'm

2980
01:41:42,149 --> 01:41:40,560
i i read a lot of the kyoto school

2981
01:41:45,189 --> 01:41:42,159
nishitani nishida

2982
01:41:47,590 --> 01:41:45,199
um uh masa abe uh you know

2983
01:41:49,189 --> 01:41:47,600
suzuki uh things like that and what was

2984
01:41:52,310 --> 01:41:49,199
going on there

2985
01:41:53,590 --> 01:41:52,320
and so the notion that comes out is like

2986
01:41:55,669 --> 01:41:53,600
from these two traditions and they

2987
01:41:59,109 --> 01:41:55,679
converge on this idea of uh

2988
01:42:00,790 --> 01:41:59,119
that unless you that at bottom

2989
01:42:02,149 --> 01:42:00,800
and i can make a more long argument for

2990
01:42:02,790 --> 01:42:02,159
this but i think you'll get the gist of

2991
01:42:05,189 --> 01:42:02,800
it

2992
01:42:08,229 --> 01:42:05,199
if i reject skepticism if i reject an

2993
01:42:10,629 --> 01:42:08,239
absolute skepticism i have to rely on

2994
01:42:12,950 --> 01:42:10,639
that kind of participatory knowing that

2995
01:42:15,510 --> 01:42:12,960
i i know it because i am it

2996
01:42:17,350 --> 01:42:15,520
right and that and because i am it and

2997
01:42:21,030 --> 01:42:17,360
that that part of the world

2998
01:42:21,669 --> 01:42:21,040
is also it uh we participate in the same

2999
01:42:25,189 --> 01:42:21,679
thing

3000
01:42:26,070 --> 01:42:25,199
that that is how that is how my mind and

3001
01:42:27,510 --> 01:42:26,080
the world touch

3002
01:42:29,109 --> 01:42:27,520
i know this might step on a couple of

3003
01:42:31,270 --> 01:42:29,119
your your toes but

3004
01:42:32,870 --> 01:42:31,280
that's my way of talking right now um

3005
01:42:34,950 --> 01:42:32,880
and so the idea that

3006
01:42:37,109 --> 01:42:34,960
um there's a kind of knowing that is

3007
01:42:39,350 --> 01:42:37,119
simultaneously how i know myself

3008
01:42:40,629 --> 01:42:39,360
and i don't mean my autobiography i mean

3009
01:42:43,270 --> 01:42:40,639
how i untickly and

3010
01:42:45,270 --> 01:42:43,280
even ontologically know myself that is

3011
01:42:45,750 --> 01:42:45,280
necessarily bound up with how i know the

3012
01:42:48,310 --> 01:42:45,760
world

3013
01:42:50,390 --> 01:42:48,320
when i see plato and i you know this

3014
01:42:51,350 --> 01:42:50,400
means i reject sort of standard academic

3015
01:42:53,990 --> 01:42:51,360
interpretations

3016
01:42:55,109 --> 01:42:54,000
of plato i see plato no no that's not

3017
01:42:56,550 --> 01:42:55,119
that's not true some

3018
01:42:57,990 --> 01:42:56,560
there's a growing group of people that

3019
01:42:58,870 --> 01:42:58,000
would agree with this interpretation of

3020
01:43:01,350 --> 01:42:58,880
plato so

3021
01:43:02,229 --> 01:43:01,360
um i see plato as basically the person

3022
01:43:04,550 --> 01:43:02,239
who sort of

3023
01:43:05,990 --> 01:43:04,560
proposed that uh that at the core of his

3024
01:43:09,030 --> 01:43:06,000
argument is that idea

3025
01:43:12,070 --> 01:43:09,040
of participation ultimately grounds us

3026
01:43:15,430 --> 01:43:12,080
and then that leads me to

3027
01:43:17,830 --> 01:43:15,440
you know um uh the the

3028
01:43:19,189 --> 01:43:17,840
the the the second point you asked do

3029
01:43:21,189 --> 01:43:19,199
you think we can address the meaning

3030
01:43:23,430 --> 01:43:21,199
crisis without fundamentally addressing

3031
01:43:24,870 --> 01:43:23,440
our ontology so there's there's two ways

3032
01:43:26,310 --> 01:43:24,880
of asking that question and since you

3033
01:43:27,830 --> 01:43:26,320
brought it up in the context of clinical

3034
01:43:30,149 --> 01:43:27,840
psychology it's important to

3035
01:43:30,870 --> 01:43:30,159
distinguish like i wouldn't want to

3036
01:43:32,629 --> 01:43:30,880
claim

3037
01:43:34,950 --> 01:43:32,639
that everybody has to do fundamental

3038
01:43:38,470 --> 01:43:34,960
ontology in order to get alleviation

3039
01:43:41,750 --> 01:43:38,480
uh from anxiety or despair or depression

3040
01:43:43,750 --> 01:43:41,760
or loneliness because they i would say

3041
01:43:45,430 --> 01:43:43,760
there's a level at which they they do

3042
01:43:46,550 --> 01:43:45,440
need an ecology of practices simply

3043
01:43:48,790 --> 01:43:46,560
changing their beliefs

3044
01:43:51,109 --> 01:43:48,800
is radically insufficient that's why

3045
01:43:54,390 --> 01:43:51,119
people go into therapy

3046
01:43:55,910 --> 01:43:54,400
many people i think live

3047
01:43:58,070 --> 01:43:55,920
live and this is not meant to be any

3048
01:43:59,350 --> 01:43:58,080
kind of elitist insult but they live

3049
01:44:01,350 --> 01:43:59,360
very pragmatically if they've got an

3050
01:44:04,390 --> 01:44:01,360
ecology of practices that's working

3051
01:44:06,470 --> 01:44:04,400
that's it that's good right

3052
01:44:09,109 --> 01:44:06,480
so in that sense i don't think everybody

3053
01:44:12,310 --> 01:44:09,119
has to do it but in the deeper sense

3054
01:44:15,030 --> 01:44:12,320
do they are they ultimately dependent on

3055
01:44:16,310 --> 01:44:15,040
scientists and philosophers finding a

3056
01:44:19,910 --> 01:44:16,320
way to ground

3057
01:44:20,310 --> 01:44:19,920
and legitimate that ecology of practices

3058
01:44:27,430 --> 01:44:20,320
in

3059
01:44:29,109 --> 01:44:27,440
garrett's our world view is our

3060
01:44:30,709 --> 01:44:29,119
meta-meaning system

3061
01:44:32,229 --> 01:44:30,719
i'm not equating our world view

3062
01:44:33,510 --> 01:44:32,239
completely with our ontology

3063
01:44:36,470 --> 01:44:33,520
but i'm saying our world viewers are

3064
01:44:37,910 --> 01:44:36,480
sort of our our shared

3065
01:44:40,470 --> 01:44:37,920
our shared ontology our shared

3066
01:44:42,470 --> 01:44:40,480
commitment if you'll allow me that okay

3067
01:44:43,510 --> 01:44:42,480
and so and i think our world view is our

3068
01:44:46,550 --> 01:44:43,520
meta meaning system

3069
01:44:48,229 --> 01:44:46,560
it is that it is not itself a meeting

3070
01:44:50,070 --> 01:44:48,239
system it is that which

3071
01:44:51,750 --> 01:44:50,080
like you said at the bottom makes

3072
01:44:52,310 --> 01:44:51,760
possible all the other meaning systems

3073
01:44:54,950 --> 01:44:52,320
by

3074
01:44:57,109 --> 01:44:54,960
giving a participatory relationship a

3075
01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:57,119
pattern of co-identification

3076
01:45:00,550 --> 01:44:59,520
between the agents and what i call what

3077
01:45:02,310 --> 01:45:00,560
chris and i in our book

3078
01:45:03,590 --> 01:45:02,320
and philip what i call the agent in the

3079
01:45:06,629 --> 01:45:03,600
arena the world

3080
01:45:10,070 --> 01:45:06,639
becomes a place that is shaped

3081
01:45:12,709 --> 01:45:10,080
either physically or mentally to fit me

3082
01:45:13,750 --> 01:45:12,719
and by which i physically and that also

3083
01:45:15,510 --> 01:45:13,760
includes technology

3084
01:45:16,790 --> 01:45:15,520
and or mentally shape myself to the

3085
01:45:18,629 --> 01:45:16,800
world so that we

3086
01:45:20,470 --> 01:45:18,639
have a participatory relation so there

3087
01:45:25,910 --> 01:45:20,480
are our affordances

3088
01:45:30,070 --> 01:45:27,990
it there has to be people out there

3089
01:45:33,189 --> 01:45:30,080
doing that there has to be people

3090
01:45:36,229 --> 01:45:33,199
who who are saying

3091
01:45:38,550 --> 01:45:36,239
the current worldview does not home us i

3092
01:45:41,510 --> 01:45:38,560
mean we don't belong in our worldview

3093
01:45:43,270 --> 01:45:41,520
we we like there's no place for us in it

3094
01:45:44,470 --> 01:45:43,280
and that means ultimately everything

3095
01:45:46,229 --> 01:45:44,480
we're doing

3096
01:45:48,470 --> 01:45:46,239
with our ecologies and practices doesn't

3097
01:45:49,750 --> 01:45:48,480
fit in that world view

3098
01:45:51,590 --> 01:45:49,760
and like i say most people don't have to

3099
01:45:53,109 --> 01:45:51,600
solve that problem but that problem

3100
01:45:55,030 --> 01:45:53,119
cannot remain unsolved

3101
01:45:56,310 --> 01:45:55,040
at least in the sense of seriously

3102
01:45:57,750 --> 01:45:56,320
plausibly addressed

3103
01:46:00,149 --> 01:45:57,760
so i hope that was an answer to your

3104
01:46:02,550 --> 01:46:00,159
question yeah yeah i i am with you i

3105
01:46:03,430 --> 01:46:02,560
i even agree with you and actually i

3106
01:46:04,950 --> 01:46:03,440
have

3107
01:46:07,510 --> 01:46:04,960
no problem admitting to this in

3108
01:46:11,030 --> 01:46:07,520
reinforcing this i don't think

3109
01:46:11,990 --> 01:46:11,040
any conceptual buy-in into a specific

3110
01:46:14,870 --> 01:46:12,000
ontology will

3111
01:46:15,510 --> 01:46:14,880
solve anybody's psychological problems

3112
01:46:17,990 --> 01:46:15,520
um

3113
01:46:18,870 --> 01:46:18,000
because conceptual understanding is not

3114
01:46:21,030 --> 01:46:18,880
embodied

3115
01:46:21,910 --> 01:46:21,040
it stays rotating somewhere in the head

3116
01:46:24,950 --> 01:46:21,920
and it doesn't go

3117
01:46:27,270 --> 01:46:24,960
down into your emotional life

3118
01:46:29,270 --> 01:46:27,280
i do think though that we are in a

3119
01:46:30,870 --> 01:46:29,280
culture where the the intellect is the

3120
01:46:33,590 --> 01:46:30,880
bouncer of the heart

3121
01:46:34,790 --> 01:46:33,600
so even if you could have excuse me did

3122
01:46:37,590 --> 01:46:34,800
you say bouncer like

3123
01:46:38,470 --> 01:46:37,600
like dancer yeah they get like at a bar

3124
01:46:41,430 --> 01:46:38,480
yeah yeah

3125
01:46:42,870 --> 01:46:41,440
that's right yeah that's a great

3126
01:46:44,550 --> 01:46:42,880
metaphor i love that

3127
01:46:46,310 --> 01:46:44,560
yeah the intellect is the bouncer of the

3128
01:46:47,590 --> 01:46:46,320
heart so even in situations where

3129
01:46:49,990 --> 01:46:47,600
somebody

3130
01:46:52,149 --> 01:46:50,000
would have a transformative experience

3131
01:46:54,070 --> 01:46:52,159
or a transformative insight

3132
01:46:55,189 --> 01:46:54,080
they don't give themselves intellectual

3133
01:46:57,669 --> 01:46:55,199
permission

3134
01:46:59,510 --> 01:46:57,679
to take it on board to even perceive it

3135
01:47:02,310 --> 01:46:59,520
let alone take it seriously and

3136
01:47:03,510 --> 01:47:02,320
and when the insight sort of muscles in

3137
01:47:06,870 --> 01:47:03,520
like the experience of

3138
01:47:09,590 --> 01:47:06,880
awe that occasionally we have

3139
01:47:11,910 --> 01:47:09,600
it comes in we have the ah but 15

3140
01:47:14,550 --> 01:47:11,920
minutes later saying yeah that's nothing

3141
01:47:15,830 --> 01:47:14,560
emotions are just a side effect of

3142
01:47:18,470 --> 01:47:15,840
evolutionarily

3143
01:47:19,350 --> 01:47:18,480
encoded behavioral patterns driven by

3144
01:47:22,870 --> 01:47:19,360
physiology

3145
01:47:25,510 --> 01:47:22,880
and off it goes it it doesn't sink in

3146
01:47:27,109 --> 01:47:25,520
so i i i think that although an ontology

3147
01:47:29,430 --> 01:47:27,119
would not solve the problem it

3148
01:47:30,550 --> 01:47:29,440
literally opens the door for whatever

3149
01:47:32,709 --> 01:47:30,560
solution

3150
01:47:34,229 --> 01:47:32,719
there might be because right now there

3151
01:47:37,510 --> 01:47:34,239
is a closed door and a

3152
01:47:40,229 --> 01:47:37,520
very big muscleful bouncer

3153
01:47:42,470 --> 01:47:40,239
at the door that's preventing us from

3154
01:47:44,950 --> 01:47:42,480
relating with more richness and depth to

3155
01:47:47,350 --> 01:47:44,960
ourselves in the world

3156
01:47:48,070 --> 01:47:47,360
i would agree with that bernardo uh

3157
01:47:50,470 --> 01:47:48,080
although i

3158
01:47:52,149 --> 01:47:50,480
i guess i think i think a bit a little

3159
01:47:54,310 --> 01:47:52,159
bit more like a bifurcation point

3160
01:47:55,750 --> 01:47:54,320
i think there are many people who do

3161
01:47:57,430 --> 01:47:55,760
exactly what you say the dismissive

3162
01:47:59,270 --> 01:47:57,440
distractive response

3163
01:48:00,470 --> 01:47:59,280
however i've met and you know even

3164
01:48:02,709 --> 01:48:00,480
within it within

3165
01:48:04,229 --> 01:48:02,719
an experimental paradigm because done

3166
01:48:05,270 --> 01:48:04,239
experiments on people with mystical

3167
01:48:07,350 --> 01:48:05,280
experience and

3168
01:48:08,870 --> 01:48:07,360
stuff like that i've met people who have

3169
01:48:11,510 --> 01:48:08,880
the opposite

3170
01:48:12,709 --> 01:48:11,520
so they have a very powerful and there's

3171
01:48:13,669 --> 01:48:12,719
literature to back me up on what i'm

3172
01:48:14,390 --> 01:48:13,679
saying they have these powerful

3173
01:48:16,790 --> 01:48:14,400
experiences

3174
01:48:18,629 --> 01:48:16,800
and they precisely can't dismiss them

3175
01:48:21,430 --> 01:48:18,639
there's something in

3176
01:48:21,830 --> 01:48:21,440
and so i call this onto normativity so

3177
01:48:24,070 --> 01:48:21,840
oft

3178
01:48:25,350 --> 01:48:24,080
like we people do dismiss many of their

3179
01:48:25,910 --> 01:48:25,360
altered states of consciousness and

3180
01:48:27,510 --> 01:48:25,920
again

3181
01:48:29,189 --> 01:48:27,520
that's adaptive and many of them should

3182
01:48:31,830 --> 01:48:29,199
be dismissed perhaps uh

3183
01:48:33,750 --> 01:48:31,840
but what's really interesting is people

3184
01:48:35,189 --> 01:48:33,760
and it looks to be about 30 to 40

3185
01:48:36,229 --> 01:48:35,199
percent of the population which is not

3186
01:48:38,550 --> 01:48:36,239
insignificant

3187
01:48:40,709 --> 01:48:38,560
have these experiences and they and they

3188
01:48:41,910 --> 01:48:40,719
do this they don't say oh it doesn't fit

3189
01:48:43,590 --> 01:48:41,920
in with this world view

3190
01:48:45,990 --> 01:48:43,600
therefore it's not real they do the

3191
01:48:48,149 --> 01:48:46,000
opposite they say that's really real

3192
01:48:49,830 --> 01:48:48,159
and therefore there's something wrong

3193
01:48:51,830 --> 01:48:49,840
with this

3194
01:48:54,070 --> 01:48:51,840
that happens too and that happened again

3195
01:48:55,510 --> 01:48:54,080
it's not majority but 30 to 40 percent

3196
01:48:58,709 --> 01:48:55,520
is not insignificant that's

3197
01:49:00,629 --> 01:48:58,719
that's a lot of people um and and

3198
01:49:02,470 --> 01:49:00,639
and and then and then but what typically

3199
01:49:05,430 --> 01:49:02,480
happens though is they

3200
01:49:05,830 --> 01:49:05,440
they go looking for some guidance and

3201
01:49:09,750 --> 01:49:05,840
they

3202
01:49:10,070 --> 01:49:09,760
didactic thing which can often spin off

3203
01:49:14,310 --> 01:49:10,080
in

3204
01:49:17,430 --> 01:49:14,320
there is no ontology

3205
01:49:19,430 --> 01:49:17,440
that seeks to bridge between if you'll

3206
01:49:21,990 --> 01:49:19,440
allow me everyday obviousness

3207
01:49:22,950 --> 01:49:22,000
and the kind those kinds of experiences

3208
01:49:25,910 --> 01:49:22,960
of awe

3209
01:49:26,870 --> 01:49:25,920
and like onto normativity like and what

3210
01:49:28,390 --> 01:49:26,880
and you know if you take a look at

3211
01:49:29,189 --> 01:49:28,400
jaden's work when people have these

3212
01:49:31,109 --> 01:49:29,199
experiences

3213
01:49:33,350 --> 01:49:31,119
they they will reconfigure their entire

3214
01:49:34,950 --> 01:49:33,360
lives their relationships their careers

3215
01:49:36,790 --> 01:49:34,960
even their sense of identity because

3216
01:49:37,350 --> 01:49:36,800
they want it and here's where i want to

3217
01:49:39,910 --> 01:49:37,360
invoke it

3218
01:49:40,870 --> 01:49:39,920
they want to conform more and more to to

3219
01:49:42,950 --> 01:49:40,880
that really real

3220
01:49:44,550 --> 01:49:42,960
the really real has an independent

3221
01:49:46,390 --> 01:49:44,560
normativity and value

3222
01:49:47,750 --> 01:49:46,400
to them above and beyond you know

3223
01:49:49,990 --> 01:49:47,760
practical power and

3224
01:49:52,310 --> 01:49:50,000
and so and they they do and they do

3225
01:49:56,149 --> 01:49:52,320
these these major transformations

3226
01:49:57,189 --> 01:49:56,159
but they're often thwarted or that can

3227
01:49:59,030 --> 01:49:57,199
go awry

3228
01:50:00,550 --> 01:49:59,040
precisely because they often have to do

3229
01:50:03,750 --> 01:50:00,560
it in a very auto

3230
01:50:06,310 --> 01:50:03,760
auto didactic fashion uh and that

3231
01:50:07,510 --> 01:50:06,320
you see and that's where i would hope

3232
01:50:10,470 --> 01:50:07,520
you know however

3233
01:50:11,830 --> 01:50:10,480
uh we managed to uh you know you know

3234
01:50:14,229 --> 01:50:11,840
flesh out the ontology

3235
01:50:17,430 --> 01:50:14,239
and make it work and i think we we

3236
01:50:23,910 --> 01:50:20,709
i would hope that it would

3237
01:50:24,790 --> 01:50:23,920
allow people to turn to individuals that

3238
01:50:28,390 --> 01:50:24,800
they pro

3239
01:50:30,229 --> 01:50:28,400
plausibly accord intellectual respect to

3240
01:50:32,470 --> 01:50:30,239
not because the project is intellectual

3241
01:50:35,589 --> 01:50:32,480
but because they can take seriously

3242
01:50:36,870 --> 01:50:35,599
the ontology that would allow them to

3243
01:50:39,109 --> 01:50:36,880
talk to each other

3244
01:50:40,149 --> 01:50:39,119
it would give them a lingua franca by

3245
01:50:43,030 --> 01:50:40,159
which they could

3246
01:50:44,629 --> 01:50:43,040
do what human do beings often need to do

3247
01:50:45,589 --> 01:50:44,639
which is to do this in distributed

3248
01:50:47,910 --> 01:50:45,599
cognition

3249
01:50:50,070 --> 01:50:47,920
not as isolated individuals so that

3250
01:50:52,550 --> 01:50:50,080
would be one of the hopes i would have

3251
01:50:54,550 --> 01:50:52,560
uh for an ontology that it one of my

3252
01:50:57,189 --> 01:50:54,560
hopes is that this distributed cognition

3253
01:51:00,629 --> 01:50:57,199
includes bernardo's cat

3254
01:51:02,390 --> 01:51:00,639
push off the screen okay

3255
01:51:04,790 --> 01:51:02,400
when i don't push him off he will

3256
01:51:07,270 --> 01:51:04,800
literally be on my face

3257
01:51:08,149 --> 01:51:07,280
what occurs to me is a question i'd like

3258
01:51:10,709 --> 01:51:08,159
you both to explore

3259
01:51:11,990 --> 01:51:10,719
that is what is real what exists how do

3260
01:51:15,430 --> 01:51:12,000
you define what exists and

3261
01:51:15,440 --> 01:51:19,510
so bernardo why don't you start that

3262
01:51:23,750 --> 01:51:23,109
i don't think um apes evolved on planet

3263
01:51:27,430 --> 01:51:23,760
earth

3264
01:51:31,830 --> 01:51:27,440
have the cognitive apparatus

3265
01:51:35,510 --> 01:51:31,840
that would be necessary for us to know

3266
01:51:38,950 --> 01:51:35,520
uh conceptually the ultimate

3267
01:51:40,310 --> 01:51:38,960
salient truths of nature i don't think

3268
01:51:42,229 --> 01:51:40,320
that is possible

3269
01:51:43,510 --> 01:51:42,239
so i don't think the game we are playing

3270
01:51:46,790 --> 01:51:43,520
in ontology

3271
01:51:49,910 --> 01:51:46,800
is a game of finding what the truth is

3272
01:51:51,189 --> 01:51:49,920
i think the game is given our

3273
01:51:54,390 --> 01:51:51,199
limitations

3274
01:51:58,229 --> 01:51:54,400
in our best learnings and best practices

3275
01:52:01,270 --> 01:51:58,239
and our epistemic value system

3276
01:52:03,830 --> 01:52:01,280
how much closer to truth

3277
01:52:04,709 --> 01:52:03,840
can we get knowing that we will not

3278
01:52:07,030 --> 01:52:04,719
arrive

3279
01:52:07,830 --> 01:52:07,040
but can we do better than we are doing

3280
01:52:10,550 --> 01:52:07,840
right now

3281
01:52:12,229 --> 01:52:10,560
given what we know and our value system

3282
01:52:15,109 --> 01:52:12,239
but by value system i mean

3283
01:52:17,430 --> 01:52:15,119
our appreciation of of empirical

3284
01:52:18,229 --> 01:52:17,440
evidence our appreciation of internal

3285
01:52:21,589 --> 01:52:18,239
consistency

3286
01:52:24,709 --> 01:52:21,599
coherence uh of yeah i'll say that john

3287
01:52:27,830 --> 01:52:24,719
conceptual parsimony plausibility

3288
01:52:28,550 --> 01:52:27,840
so given this value system around which

3289
01:52:31,430 --> 01:52:28,560
there is

3290
01:52:32,070 --> 01:52:31,440
some degree of cultural consensus not

3291
01:52:34,149 --> 01:52:32,080
food

3292
01:52:35,270 --> 01:52:34,159
not full consensus but some degree of

3293
01:52:38,310 --> 01:52:35,280
cultural consensus

3294
01:52:40,790 --> 01:52:38,320
at least in academia how

3295
01:52:42,229 --> 01:52:40,800
well can we do can we do better than we

3296
01:52:45,109 --> 01:52:42,239
are doing now and

3297
01:52:45,870 --> 01:52:45,119
i i submit to you guys that i think we

3298
01:52:48,470 --> 01:52:45,880
can do

3299
01:52:49,189 --> 01:52:48,480
significantly better than we are doing

3300
01:52:51,430 --> 01:52:49,199
now that

3301
01:52:53,030 --> 01:52:51,440
that would not mean that we can get to

3302
01:52:56,149 --> 01:52:53,040
the truth of the matter

3303
01:52:59,350 --> 01:52:56,159
as apes evolved on planet earth

3304
01:52:59,830 --> 01:52:59,360
but we can get closer than we are and

3305
01:53:04,070 --> 01:52:59,840
and

3306
01:53:06,709 --> 01:53:04,080
this is

3307
01:53:08,149 --> 01:53:06,719
uh not by construction it's it so

3308
01:53:10,390 --> 01:53:08,159
happens to be like that

3309
01:53:13,510 --> 01:53:10,400
by getting closer i think we will also

3310
01:53:17,109 --> 01:53:13,520
get healthier and we will leave in

3311
01:53:17,990 --> 01:53:17,119
a healthier way more aware of the depth

3312
01:53:20,550 --> 01:53:18,000
of the mystery

3313
01:53:22,470 --> 01:53:20,560
where we are inserted which is that

3314
01:53:26,310 --> 01:53:22,480
dimension of depth and mystery that

3315
01:53:28,550 --> 01:53:26,320
that we lose sight of today

3316
01:53:30,070 --> 01:53:28,560
that i think we can definitely achieve

3317
01:53:34,310 --> 01:53:30,080
now a quick observation i

3318
01:53:36,149 --> 01:53:34,320
i need to have a bio break shortly

3319
01:53:37,830 --> 01:53:36,159
so if we can find it you don't want to

3320
01:53:39,510 --> 01:53:37,840
take a fashion break right now

3321
01:53:41,430 --> 01:53:39,520
or maybe john can answer the same

3322
01:53:44,709 --> 01:53:41,440
question so there is uh yes yeah

3323
01:53:45,750 --> 01:53:44,719
yeah um okay so bye bernard we'll see

3324
01:53:47,109 --> 01:53:45,760
you right back

3325
01:53:49,030 --> 01:53:47,119
no i want to hear the answer and then i

3326
01:53:50,870 --> 01:53:49,040
hope we can yeah and then and then we

3327
01:53:54,470 --> 01:53:50,880
can both break

3328
01:53:56,629 --> 01:53:54,480
if possible um yeah so i mean

3329
01:53:58,310 --> 01:53:56,639
real can be used in two different ways

3330
01:54:01,270 --> 01:53:58,320
it can be used as an absolute

3331
01:54:03,350 --> 01:54:01,280
or it can be used as a comparative um

3332
01:54:05,109 --> 01:54:03,360
and i happen to think that it makes more

3333
01:54:07,189 --> 01:54:05,119
sense to treat it as a comparative

3334
01:54:08,950 --> 01:54:07,199
and i think that's what uh what you're

3335
01:54:11,270 --> 01:54:08,960
what you're saying bernardo i think

3336
01:54:12,550 --> 01:54:11,280
we although we can't say this is real in

3337
01:54:15,030 --> 01:54:12,560
an absolute sense

3338
01:54:15,589 --> 01:54:15,040
we can with good reason good evidence

3339
01:54:17,990 --> 01:54:15,599
and good

3340
01:54:18,790 --> 01:54:18,000
argument say but this is more real than

3341
01:54:20,870 --> 01:54:18,800
that

3342
01:54:21,990 --> 01:54:20,880
we can make those comparative judgments

3343
01:54:25,270 --> 01:54:22,000
uh in a way that

3344
01:54:25,990 --> 01:54:25,280
seems to be progressive uh in in the

3345
01:54:28,310 --> 01:54:26,000
sense that

3346
01:54:29,589 --> 01:54:28,320
like we can we we don't keep losing

3347
01:54:31,990 --> 01:54:29,599
previous claims

3348
01:54:33,750 --> 01:54:32,000
in some sort of chaos there's a slowly

3349
01:54:35,910 --> 01:54:33,760
building coherent structure

3350
01:54:37,669 --> 01:54:35,920
that emerges and we revise it and blah

3351
01:54:39,750 --> 01:54:37,679
blah blah blah not denying any of that

3352
01:54:40,950 --> 01:54:39,760
but i think i think the comparative

3353
01:54:45,109 --> 01:54:40,960
sense of realness

3354
01:54:47,270 --> 01:54:45,119
is something that we can uh we have to

3355
01:54:48,149 --> 01:54:47,280
and i think we can put our epistemic

3356
01:54:51,510 --> 01:54:48,159
trust in

3357
01:54:53,430 --> 01:54:51,520
um and and and so i think we that is to

3358
01:54:55,109 --> 01:54:53,440
say for all of our epistemic boundedness

3359
01:54:57,830 --> 01:54:55,119
i agree with you bernardo we are

3360
01:54:58,870 --> 01:54:57,840
we are we are slightly uh super evolved

3361
01:55:01,030 --> 01:54:58,880
apes that have

3362
01:55:02,390 --> 01:55:01,040
culture and culture ratchets which is

3363
01:55:03,030 --> 01:55:02,400
that's an important that's an important

3364
01:55:04,550 --> 01:55:03,040
difference

3365
01:55:06,310 --> 01:55:04,560
we don't we don't individually have to

3366
01:55:08,950 --> 01:55:06,320
relearn everything from scratch

3367
01:55:10,950 --> 01:55:08,960
and that does help but i think culture

3368
01:55:14,310 --> 01:55:10,960
ratchets precisely because

3369
01:55:15,830 --> 01:55:14,320
we can make this progressive improvement

3370
01:55:17,430 --> 01:55:15,840
i don't think there's any teleology or

3371
01:55:19,510 --> 01:55:17,440
anything like that i think we can go

3372
01:55:21,270 --> 01:55:19,520
we still could massively just screw this

3373
01:55:24,390 --> 01:55:21,280
all up nevertheless

3374
01:55:26,709 --> 01:55:24,400
i agree that we can get

3375
01:55:28,070 --> 01:55:26,719
we can get better and in a comparative

3376
01:55:28,709 --> 01:55:28,080
sense of saying this is more real than

3377
01:55:35,430 --> 01:55:28,719
that

3378
01:55:39,109 --> 01:55:35,440
we are already committed to

3379
01:55:42,149 --> 01:55:39,119
a non-flat ontology um

3380
01:55:45,270 --> 01:55:42,159
and i think that as soon as we do that

3381
01:55:47,030 --> 01:55:45,280
we start drawing relationships of okay

3382
01:55:47,910 --> 01:55:47,040
this is dependent on this and this is

3383
01:55:50,950 --> 01:55:47,920
dependent on that

3384
01:55:51,830 --> 01:55:50,960
in terms of our judgment and i think for

3385
01:55:55,189 --> 01:55:51,840
me

3386
01:55:56,470 --> 01:55:55,199
that and this is where uh i'll i'll put

3387
01:55:57,669 --> 01:55:56,480
my neck out a little bit more perhaps

3388
01:55:59,430 --> 01:55:57,679
than bernard did

3389
01:56:01,430 --> 01:55:59,440
that's where to me again that original

3390
01:56:03,430 --> 01:56:01,440
sort of platonic insight about

3391
01:56:04,470 --> 01:56:03,440
you know intelligibility and realness

3392
01:56:06,790 --> 01:56:04,480
that our best

3393
01:56:08,629 --> 01:56:06,800
are the best way we we participate in

3394
01:56:10,629 --> 01:56:08,639
the way we talked about earlier

3395
01:56:12,470 --> 01:56:10,639
reality is through intelligibility it's

3396
01:56:16,790 --> 01:56:12,480
our it's our best

3397
01:56:18,550 --> 01:56:16,800
uh way of getting um

3398
01:56:20,229 --> 01:56:18,560
the platform by which we can walk a

3399
01:56:23,189 --> 01:56:20,239
little bit more and more closer

3400
01:56:24,709 --> 01:56:23,199
uh to what is perhaps real in that

3401
01:56:27,350 --> 01:56:24,719
absolute sense but i agree

3402
01:56:28,950 --> 01:56:27,360
i think it's i think it's hubristic and

3403
01:56:31,750 --> 01:56:28,960
i think it's just

3404
01:56:32,470 --> 01:56:31,760
i think it's damaging to think we have

3405
01:56:36,709 --> 01:56:32,480
the real

3406
01:56:40,229 --> 01:56:36,719
complete sense i i argue against that

3407
01:56:43,669 --> 01:56:40,239
consistently on the second point

3408
01:56:47,589 --> 01:56:43,679
i agree that if we don't get back

3409
01:56:49,270 --> 01:56:47,599
to helping people improve

3410
01:56:51,510 --> 01:56:49,280
those two things in an integrated

3411
01:56:53,669 --> 01:56:51,520
fashion intelligible realness

3412
01:56:55,990 --> 01:56:53,679
that they have that things make sense to

3413
01:56:58,950 --> 01:56:56,000
them and they feel that that sense

3414
01:57:00,790 --> 01:56:58,960
is people want both right they're

3415
01:57:02,709 --> 01:57:00,800
different poles in fact of meaning like

3416
01:57:04,229 --> 01:57:02,719
people want things to make sense but

3417
01:57:06,709 --> 01:57:04,239
they also want what they make sense to

3418
01:57:08,790 --> 01:57:06,719
be in some sense real

3419
01:57:09,750 --> 01:57:08,800
right so i'll do this with i'll do this

3420
01:57:11,350 --> 01:57:09,760
with my students i'll say

3421
01:57:13,189 --> 01:57:11,360
how many of you are in deeply satisfying

3422
01:57:14,310 --> 01:57:13,199
romantic relationships and i'll put up

3423
01:57:16,310 --> 01:57:14,320
they'll put up their hands

3424
01:57:17,510 --> 01:57:16,320
and i said keep up your hand if you

3425
01:57:19,030 --> 01:57:17,520
would like to know

3426
01:57:20,629 --> 01:57:19,040
that your partner is cheating on you

3427
01:57:21,510 --> 01:57:20,639
even though that would destroy the

3428
01:57:24,550 --> 01:57:21,520
relationship

3429
01:57:25,910 --> 01:57:24,560
95 of my students keep their hands up

3430
01:57:27,750 --> 01:57:25,920
because they don't want it if it's not

3431
01:57:28,310 --> 01:57:27,760
real even if it's making beautiful sense

3432
01:57:30,390 --> 01:57:28,320
to them

3433
01:57:33,510 --> 01:57:30,400
they ultimately also want it to be real

3434
01:57:37,270 --> 01:57:33,520
and so i think that if we do not

3435
01:57:40,870 --> 01:57:37,280
give if we if we do not afford people

3436
01:57:42,790 --> 01:57:40,880
a way of well i don't know

3437
01:57:44,790 --> 01:57:42,800
drinking more and more from the ongoing

3438
01:57:47,189 --> 01:57:44,800
fount of intelligibility

3439
01:57:48,629 --> 01:57:47,199
in a way that they think is realizing

3440
01:57:50,870 --> 01:57:48,639
them in some fashion

3441
01:57:52,950 --> 01:57:50,880
i think it's going to it is i wouldn't

3442
01:57:55,830 --> 01:57:52,960
even say it's going to it is producing

3443
01:57:57,189 --> 01:57:55,840
uh ill health both at the individual and

3444
01:58:00,390 --> 01:57:57,199
and collective level

3445
01:58:01,750 --> 01:58:00,400
uh and so these issues are not uh and i

3446
01:58:03,350 --> 01:58:01,760
don't mean i don't use this adjective

3447
01:58:03,669 --> 01:58:03,360
pejoratively here but these issues are

3448
01:58:05,430 --> 01:58:03,679
not

3449
01:58:07,030 --> 01:58:05,440
academic issues these are existential

3450
01:58:09,830 --> 01:58:07,040
issues

3451
01:58:10,470 --> 01:58:09,840
and so i think people ignore them at

3452
01:58:11,910 --> 01:58:10,480
their peril

3453
01:58:14,470 --> 01:58:11,920
one more time i'm not saying everybody

3454
01:58:17,189 --> 01:58:14,480
has to be a philosopher or a scientist

3455
01:58:20,310 --> 01:58:17,199
but there has to be this problem can't

3456
01:58:22,229 --> 01:58:20,320
be left unaddressed

3457
01:58:23,990 --> 01:58:22,239
okay let's go to the washing half two

3458
01:58:25,589 --> 01:58:24,000
minutes yeah

3459
01:58:27,510 --> 01:58:25,599
i'll be back in two minutes john do you

3460
01:58:28,229 --> 01:58:27,520
have to go as well yeah i'm going to go

3461
01:58:31,270 --> 01:58:28,239
as well

3462
01:58:33,109 --> 01:58:31,280
all right i'm back how's it going

3463
01:58:34,870 --> 01:58:33,119
good how is it going how is good how is

3464
01:58:39,189 --> 01:58:34,880
it i'm relieved

3465
01:58:42,310 --> 01:58:39,199
you're relieved how what the washroom

3466
01:58:44,950 --> 01:58:42,320
yeah yeah uh are are we getting a lot of

3467
01:58:47,350 --> 01:58:44,960
uh are we gonna do at some point or uh

3468
01:58:50,709 --> 01:58:47,360
yeah it's actually better if

3469
01:58:52,149 --> 01:58:50,719
you all continue talking and i'll wait

3470
01:58:53,430 --> 01:58:52,159
for bernardo before i say my next

3471
01:58:55,990 --> 01:58:53,440
comments but it's better if you

3472
01:58:56,950 --> 01:58:56,000
continue to talk questions there are

3473
01:59:04,070 --> 01:58:56,960
questions

3474
01:59:05,270 --> 01:59:04,080
be the seed of a four-hour discussion

3475
01:59:08,550 --> 01:59:05,280
and you're already in one so

3476
01:59:09,109 --> 01:59:08,560
we may as well just continue okay well i

3477
01:59:13,109 --> 01:59:09,119
i like

3478
01:59:14,550 --> 01:59:13,119
between debate and dialogues

3479
01:59:16,950 --> 01:59:14,560
uh thank you for we're gonna get back to

3480
01:59:18,149 --> 01:59:16,960
debate okay that's fine i'm happy to

3481
01:59:20,390 --> 01:59:18,159
just stay here too

3482
01:59:22,070 --> 01:59:20,400
um because these issues are issues that

3483
01:59:26,790 --> 01:59:22,080
really matter to me as well

3484
01:59:30,470 --> 01:59:29,030
bernardo is coming at this and i mean

3485
01:59:31,189 --> 01:59:30,480
this is a real compliment he's coming at

3486
01:59:34,390 --> 01:59:31,199
this

3487
01:59:37,270 --> 01:59:34,400
like in really good faith um and uh

3488
01:59:38,870 --> 01:59:37,280
and i'm always willing i want to talk to

3489
01:59:40,070 --> 01:59:38,880
and i want to be open to listening to

3490
01:59:42,310 --> 01:59:40,080
people who are

3491
01:59:43,830 --> 01:59:42,320
coming at this with you know thoughtful

3492
01:59:44,390 --> 01:59:43,840
good faith and that's clearly the case

3493
01:59:47,589 --> 01:59:44,400
with him

3494
01:59:50,550 --> 01:59:47,599
and so yeah well so is it with you so

3495
01:59:51,109 --> 01:59:50,560
thank you okay well you're welcome i

3496
01:59:58,709 --> 01:59:51,119
just

3497
02:00:00,229 --> 01:59:58,719
yeah thanks it's always enjoyable when

3498
02:00:01,910 --> 02:00:00,239
when i speak to you or at least when i

3499
02:00:03,750 --> 02:00:01,920
get a chance to listen to you most of

3500
02:00:05,430 --> 02:00:03,760
the time i'm listening rather than

3501
02:00:07,189 --> 02:00:05,440
speaking to you

3502
02:00:08,870 --> 02:00:07,199
i enjoyed i think it was two years ago

3503
02:00:11,669 --> 02:00:08,880
we had a couple conversations

3504
02:00:12,790 --> 02:00:11,679
in person it was that long ago yeah

3505
02:00:15,270 --> 02:00:12,800
almost two years ago

3506
02:00:17,510 --> 02:00:15,280
in the summer it will be two years you

3507
02:00:20,149 --> 02:00:17,520
were abstaining from chocolate then

3508
02:00:21,430 --> 02:00:20,159
yeah i i i've been able to uh well i'm

3509
02:00:23,990 --> 02:00:21,440
on new medication for

3510
02:00:25,510 --> 02:00:24,000
my meniere's and i've been on it since

3511
02:00:27,430 --> 02:00:25,520
about six months now and it's been just

3512
02:00:29,990 --> 02:00:27,440
enormously successful

3513
02:00:30,870 --> 02:00:30,000
uh and so um yeah i can indulge

3514
02:00:33,270 --> 02:00:30,880
occasionally in a chop

3515
02:00:34,149 --> 02:00:33,280
in chocolate uh you're looking good man

3516
02:00:40,470 --> 02:00:34,159
someone said

3517
02:00:43,270 --> 02:00:40,480
that you're sexy but wrong

3518
02:00:43,910 --> 02:00:43,280
which one would you rather uh i don't

3519
02:00:47,430 --> 02:00:43,920
know

3520
02:00:50,629 --> 02:00:47,440
um i just

3521
02:00:52,629 --> 02:00:50,639
i don't i mean i i you know

3522
02:00:54,310 --> 02:00:52,639
bo both aspects of what what's been

3523
02:00:56,870 --> 02:00:54,320
going on with us bernardo

3524
02:00:57,669 --> 02:00:56,880
i've been really enjoyed it i was i was

3525
02:01:01,030 --> 02:00:57,679
telling

3526
02:01:02,790 --> 02:01:01,040
kurt you know i i you're obviously

3527
02:01:04,629 --> 02:01:02,800
i love to talk to people even when i

3528
02:01:05,990 --> 02:01:04,639
disagree with them at some points but

3529
02:01:08,550 --> 02:01:06,000
people that are coming at this with you

3530
02:01:11,669 --> 02:01:08,560
know with reflective good faith

3531
02:01:14,070 --> 02:01:11,679
um you know uh it's deeply appreciative

3532
02:01:16,470 --> 02:01:14,080
uh so i suppose maybe in the end that

3533
02:01:20,629 --> 02:01:16,480
i'm choosing sexy over

3534
02:01:21,030 --> 02:01:20,639
here i reciprocate your feeling by the

3535
02:01:22,950 --> 02:01:21,040
way

3536
02:01:24,629 --> 02:01:22,960
john i'm having a lot of fun and i i can

3537
02:01:26,149 --> 02:01:24,639
hardly believe it's been two hours

3538
02:01:27,910 --> 02:01:26,159
already

3539
02:01:31,350 --> 02:01:27,920
yeah okay let's get to debate now

3540
02:01:36,229 --> 02:01:34,310
idea hugging forget about that let's

3541
02:01:40,070 --> 02:01:36,239
conflict let's have some swords

3542
02:01:43,350 --> 02:01:40,080
where do you all disagree

3543
02:01:44,709 --> 02:01:43,360
the most well i'm not i'm not quite

3544
02:01:49,990 --> 02:01:44,719
clear on that actually

3545
02:01:51,750 --> 02:01:50,000
given a lot of the discussion here um i

3546
02:01:54,629 --> 02:01:51,760
know ontologically you disagree

3547
02:01:56,070 --> 02:01:54,639
whereas bernardo excuse me if i'm

3548
02:01:57,189 --> 02:01:56,080
paraphrasing incorrectly but you were

3549
02:01:58,390 --> 02:01:57,199
saying that

3550
02:02:00,070 --> 02:01:58,400
we can have different contents of

3551
02:02:00,870 --> 02:02:00,080
consciousness that are all the same much

3552
02:02:02,390 --> 02:02:00,880
like

3553
02:02:04,470 --> 02:02:02,400
there are different fields in quantum

3554
02:02:06,550 --> 02:02:04,480
physics that are all one underlying

3555
02:02:07,350 --> 02:02:06,560
field at least in a grand unified theory

3556
02:02:11,669 --> 02:02:07,360
and

3557
02:02:17,510 --> 02:02:14,790
produce diversity out of

3558
02:02:17,990 --> 02:02:17,520
unity if you take into account the

3559
02:02:20,390 --> 02:02:18,000
notion

3560
02:02:21,669 --> 02:02:20,400
of excitation and this is what physics

3561
02:02:23,750 --> 02:02:21,679
does all the time

3562
02:02:24,790 --> 02:02:23,760
so you can have a single field it's all

3563
02:02:26,550 --> 02:02:24,800
that exists

3564
02:02:28,390 --> 02:02:26,560
so you would say well then there is only

3565
02:02:30,229 --> 02:02:28,400
one thing how come there is this

3566
02:02:31,990 --> 02:02:30,239
idea that there is diversity in the

3567
02:02:32,790 --> 02:02:32,000
universe and physics solves this by

3568
02:02:35,270 --> 02:02:32,800
saying okay

3569
02:02:35,910 --> 02:02:35,280
that one field has many possible

3570
02:02:38,709 --> 02:02:35,920
different

3571
02:02:39,990 --> 02:02:38,719
patterns of excitation on harmonics and

3572
02:02:43,910 --> 02:02:40,000
those are the differences

3573
02:02:46,709 --> 02:02:43,920
so you account for the phenomenological

3574
02:02:48,950 --> 02:02:46,719
difference or diversity without

3575
02:02:51,510 --> 02:02:48,960
departing from ontological unity

3576
02:02:53,430 --> 02:02:51,520
and so it's something that physics has

3577
02:02:55,910 --> 02:02:53,440
regularly done more and more

3578
02:02:57,270 --> 02:02:55,920
maybe it's overdoing it but it it gives

3579
02:03:00,149 --> 02:02:57,280
us a sort of a

3580
02:03:00,870 --> 02:03:00,159
handle on how to deal with diversity

3581
02:03:06,149 --> 02:03:00,880
without

3582
02:03:13,109 --> 02:03:09,430
and so uh the the

3583
02:03:16,950 --> 02:03:13,119
analogy i take it is that

3584
02:03:19,109 --> 02:03:16,960
um when i was pointing to multiple

3585
02:03:20,149 --> 02:03:19,119
i guess they'd be analogous to particles

3586
02:03:23,189 --> 02:03:20,159
uh yeah

3587
02:03:26,149 --> 02:03:23,199
within within consciousness uh

3588
02:03:27,430 --> 02:03:26,159
that you are saying that they are just

3589
02:03:29,109 --> 02:03:27,440
modes of a field

3590
02:03:32,870 --> 02:03:29,119
is that is that is that a good way of

3591
02:03:35,430 --> 02:03:32,880
putting it on that under

3592
02:03:36,310 --> 02:03:35,440
under quantum field theory there is no

3593
02:03:39,430 --> 02:03:36,320
electron

3594
02:03:43,350 --> 02:03:39,440
as an entity it's just a

3595
02:03:45,270 --> 02:03:43,360
shorthand for a ripple on a field so say

3596
02:03:47,270 --> 02:03:45,280
and that field can repo in different

3597
02:03:49,750 --> 02:03:47,280
places in different ways

3598
02:03:50,870 --> 02:03:49,760
and those different patterns of rippling

3599
02:03:52,790 --> 02:03:50,880
would account for

3600
02:03:54,390 --> 02:03:52,800
the properties of the elementary

3601
02:03:57,030 --> 02:03:54,400
subatomic particles

3602
02:03:57,589 --> 02:03:57,040
so under quantum field theory there are

3603
02:04:00,870 --> 02:03:57,599
actually

3604
02:04:03,430 --> 02:04:00,880
no particles uh there are only fields

3605
02:04:05,350 --> 02:04:03,440
and that's the only way to reconcile uh

3606
02:04:07,109 --> 02:04:05,360
quantum theory which you know we know is

3607
02:04:08,790 --> 02:04:07,119
true at the microscopic level

3608
02:04:11,270 --> 02:04:08,800
to reconcile that with general

3609
02:04:13,589 --> 02:04:11,280
relativity which we know is true

3610
02:04:14,550 --> 02:04:13,599
at the macroscopic level the only way to

3611
02:04:17,270 --> 02:04:14,560
reconcile them

3612
02:04:18,229 --> 02:04:17,280
is to use this notion of fields which

3613
02:04:20,950 --> 02:04:18,239
began with

3614
02:04:23,510 --> 02:04:20,960
maxwell in the 19th century that was

3615
02:04:26,310 --> 02:04:23,520
maxwell's great

3616
02:04:26,950 --> 02:04:26,320
insight following up on faraday's notion

3617
02:04:29,109 --> 02:04:26,960
of

3618
02:04:30,470 --> 02:04:29,119
an electromagnetic field maxwell's

3619
02:04:33,750 --> 02:04:30,480
insight was to

3620
02:04:35,990 --> 02:04:33,760
treat it mathematically uh as a field

3621
02:04:37,669 --> 02:04:36,000
but i take it that the patterns in the

3622
02:04:39,669 --> 02:04:37,679
field are also real

3623
02:04:40,709 --> 02:04:39,679
because that's precisely what allows you

3624
02:04:43,830 --> 02:04:40,719
to explain

3625
02:04:45,750 --> 02:04:43,840
the differences yeah that would be the

3626
02:04:48,870 --> 02:04:45,760
postulate of course

3627
02:04:51,189 --> 02:04:48,880
john as far as philosophy of science is

3628
02:04:54,310 --> 02:04:51,199
concerned i am an anti-realist

3629
02:04:57,030 --> 02:04:54,320
i think theoretical entities are

3630
02:04:58,709 --> 02:04:57,040
useful fictions and and i don't think

3631
02:05:00,950 --> 02:04:58,719
they need to be anything more

3632
02:05:02,149 --> 02:05:00,960
than used for fiction in other words

3633
02:05:05,430 --> 02:05:02,159
nature behaves

3634
02:05:07,350 --> 02:05:05,440
as though there were quantum fields

3635
02:05:08,790 --> 02:05:07,360
and and that's all we need to know we do

3636
02:05:09,350 --> 02:05:08,800
not need to know whether the quantum

3637
02:05:12,550 --> 02:05:09,360
fields

3638
02:05:15,350 --> 02:05:12,560
are uh actually and literally real so

3639
02:05:17,510 --> 02:05:15,360
long as they allow us to build a model

3640
02:05:19,030 --> 02:05:17,520
that is predictively accurate that

3641
02:05:22,069 --> 02:05:19,040
predicts nature's uh

3642
02:05:24,149 --> 02:05:22,079
behavior so that's why i will not agree

3643
02:05:25,669 --> 02:05:24,159
fully uh with what you just said but

3644
02:05:27,910 --> 02:05:25,679
under the premises of

3645
02:05:29,109 --> 02:05:27,920
realist philosophers of science the

3646
02:05:31,750 --> 02:05:29,119
quantum field would be

3647
02:05:33,350 --> 02:05:31,760
real as such although it's entirely

3648
02:05:35,030 --> 02:05:33,360
abstract

3649
02:05:36,709 --> 02:05:35,040
yeah so i didn't mean to commit you to

3650
02:05:38,310 --> 02:05:36,719
something there i was just trying to get

3651
02:05:40,629 --> 02:05:38,320
the depths of the analogy

3652
02:05:43,030 --> 02:05:40,639
uh and so i'll take it to be an analogy

3653
02:05:45,030 --> 02:05:43,040
and not commit you to anything

3654
02:05:47,669 --> 02:05:45,040
at the level of quantum mechanics so

3655
02:05:50,470 --> 02:05:47,679
what i'm trying to get at is

3656
02:05:52,629 --> 02:05:50,480
that there is a field and the field is

3657
02:05:55,189 --> 02:05:52,639
real but there's also

3658
02:05:56,950 --> 02:05:55,199
mods and modulations in the field and

3659
02:05:59,589 --> 02:05:56,960
they're also real

3660
02:06:02,310 --> 02:05:59,599
yeah those those harmonics of the field

3661
02:06:04,470 --> 02:06:02,320
are taken to be real insofar as they are

3662
02:06:06,709 --> 02:06:04,480
the basis to explain the reality

3663
02:06:08,790 --> 02:06:06,719
of a measurable phenomena which are then

3664
02:06:12,229 --> 02:06:08,800
taken to be real too

3665
02:06:16,069 --> 02:06:12,239
okay so so

3666
02:06:16,709 --> 02:06:16,079
and and then that's one thing i i i'm

3667
02:06:18,470 --> 02:06:16,719
trying to

3668
02:06:19,830 --> 02:06:18,480
i think i'm getting from your ontology

3669
02:06:22,470 --> 02:06:19,840
and the other is the

3670
02:06:23,669 --> 02:06:22,480
uh the idea is is a kind of monism that

3671
02:06:26,149 --> 02:06:23,679
at base

3672
02:06:26,790 --> 02:06:26,159
your your ontology has to ground in one

3673
02:06:29,589 --> 02:06:26,800
thing

3674
02:06:30,229 --> 02:06:29,599
uh and because if you have more than one

3675
02:06:32,550 --> 02:06:30,239
thing you

3676
02:06:34,229 --> 02:06:32,560
then you have an unexplained

3677
02:06:34,790 --> 02:06:34,239
relationship between the things is that

3678
02:06:36,550 --> 02:06:34,800
kind of

3679
02:06:38,470 --> 02:06:36,560
is that correct yeah the argument

3680
02:06:42,069 --> 02:06:38,480
against

3681
02:06:43,750 --> 02:06:42,079
substance dualism is one interaction

3682
02:06:45,990 --> 02:06:43,760
problem if the substances are

3683
02:06:48,550 --> 02:06:46,000
ontologically distinct how can they

3684
02:06:49,669 --> 02:06:48,560
interact the other one is the causal

3685
02:06:52,390 --> 02:06:49,679
closure

3686
02:06:54,470 --> 02:06:52,400
issue we are very convinced that the

3687
02:06:54,950 --> 02:06:54,480
physical world is causally closed even

3688
02:06:57,589 --> 02:06:54,960
though

3689
02:06:57,990 --> 02:06:57,599
we don't really have a reason to think

3690
02:07:00,149 --> 02:06:58,000
that

3691
02:07:02,550 --> 02:07:00,159
because you know from microscopic laws

3692
02:07:03,990 --> 02:07:02,560
to macroscopic phenomena all kinds of

3693
02:07:05,669 --> 02:07:04,000
unknown things can be playing

3694
02:07:08,149 --> 02:07:05,679
yeah which we cannot know because there

3695
02:07:09,669 --> 02:07:08,159
is no control no experiment done under

3696
02:07:10,790 --> 02:07:09,679
controlled conditions in the world at

3697
02:07:13,830 --> 02:07:10,800
large

3698
02:07:15,750 --> 02:07:13,840
but so the causal

3699
02:07:17,350 --> 02:07:15,760
uh closure of the world would be another

3700
02:07:19,109 --> 02:07:17,360
argument and the third argument is

3701
02:07:23,109 --> 02:07:19,119
parsimony

3702
02:07:25,510 --> 02:07:23,119
right uh so why wouldn't

3703
02:07:27,109 --> 02:07:25,520
you why wouldn't those push you towards

3704
02:07:30,629 --> 02:07:27,119
something like a neoplatonic

3705
02:07:33,109 --> 02:07:30,639
conclusion or a spinozistic conclusion

3706
02:07:33,669 --> 02:07:33,119
or some versions of non-dualism which

3707
02:07:35,910 --> 02:07:33,679
say

3708
02:07:38,069 --> 02:07:35,920
well no actually mind and matter are

3709
02:07:40,950 --> 02:07:38,079
actually two different modes

3710
02:07:41,589 --> 02:07:40,960
of of some underlying thing that would

3711
02:07:43,750 --> 02:07:41,599
explain

3712
02:07:44,870 --> 02:07:43,760
ultimately the relationship uh between

3713
02:07:47,189 --> 02:07:44,880
them without

3714
02:07:48,229 --> 02:07:47,199
uh denying their their different uh

3715
02:07:49,589 --> 02:07:48,239
here's and i'm using

3716
02:07:51,589 --> 02:07:49,599
this i think correctly they're different

3717
02:07:54,709 --> 02:07:51,599
modalities um

3718
02:07:56,709 --> 02:07:54,719
uh and so and you know and so ultimately

3719
02:07:57,669 --> 02:07:56,719
there is like a neoplatonism there there

3720
02:08:00,149 --> 02:07:57,679
is the one

3721
02:08:01,990 --> 02:08:00,159
and the one is neither conscious nor

3722
02:08:04,709 --> 02:08:02,000
material it transcends both

3723
02:08:05,589 --> 02:08:04,719
and therefore right or spinoza's god who

3724
02:08:10,229 --> 02:08:05,599
is neither

3725
02:08:13,830 --> 02:08:10,239
et cetera so

3726
02:08:17,270 --> 02:08:13,840
and that and that strikes me as

3727
02:08:17,830 --> 02:08:17,280
following very cleanly from the those

3728
02:08:20,470 --> 02:08:17,840
two

3729
02:08:21,430 --> 02:08:20,480
things we've just talked about right you

3730
02:08:24,470 --> 02:08:21,440
where you've got

3731
02:08:27,589 --> 02:08:24,480
ammonism and you've got right and

3732
02:08:30,550 --> 02:08:27,599
and you've got this idea of modes um uh

3733
02:08:34,629 --> 02:08:30,560
of that everything that isn't the one

3734
02:08:40,229 --> 02:08:37,270
this is this is a a position in

3735
02:08:43,430 --> 02:08:40,239
philosophy called the duo aspect monism

3736
02:08:45,109 --> 02:08:43,440
arguably spinoza was a multi-aspect

3737
02:08:46,709 --> 02:08:45,119
monastery yeah he's not just do a loss

3738
02:08:48,550 --> 02:08:46,719
yeah yeah it's not just dual aspect

3739
02:08:50,149 --> 02:08:48,560
that's unfair to spinoza he really

3740
02:08:52,470 --> 02:08:50,159
thinks of it as it's a

3741
02:08:54,629 --> 02:08:52,480
as an inexhaustible thing right that you

3742
02:08:57,589 --> 02:08:54,639
can't actually capture it

3743
02:09:00,390 --> 02:08:57,599
so this this is an official position in

3744
02:09:03,030 --> 02:09:00,400
in a sense that it's seriously discussed

3745
02:09:04,149 --> 02:09:03,040
um i i don't adopt it for the following

3746
02:09:06,390 --> 02:09:04,159
reason

3747
02:09:07,270 --> 02:09:06,400
i don't think we need to postulate a

3748
02:09:10,550 --> 02:09:07,280
third

3749
02:09:13,109 --> 02:09:10,560
unknown thing which only reveals itself

3750
02:09:14,629 --> 02:09:13,119
through material and mental aspect i

3751
02:09:17,669 --> 02:09:14,639
don't think that's needed

3752
02:09:19,430 --> 02:09:17,679
because all we know and can know about

3753
02:09:21,750 --> 02:09:19,440
what we call matter

3754
02:09:23,109 --> 02:09:21,760
is essentially mental even our

3755
02:09:26,149 --> 02:09:23,119
abstractions are mental

3756
02:09:28,550 --> 02:09:26,159
our inferences are mental the material

3757
02:09:31,109 --> 02:09:28,560
quote material world we see around us

3758
02:09:32,470 --> 02:09:31,119
is made of qualities it's made of colors

3759
02:09:35,910 --> 02:09:32,480
scents flavors

3760
02:09:36,709 --> 02:09:35,920
mental things so to to postulate

3761
02:09:39,830 --> 02:09:36,719
anything

3762
02:09:40,709 --> 02:09:39,840
that isn't essentially mental i think is

3763
02:09:43,189 --> 02:09:40,719
justified

3764
02:09:44,310 --> 02:09:43,199
only if you cannot account for the facts

3765
02:09:46,390 --> 02:09:44,320
based on

3766
02:09:48,229 --> 02:09:46,400
nature's one given which is mentality

3767
02:09:50,950 --> 02:09:48,239
the primary datum of existence

3768
02:09:51,830 --> 02:09:50,960
is mentality if you if you cannot make

3769
02:09:54,629 --> 02:09:51,840
sense of things

3770
02:09:56,870 --> 02:09:54,639
based on that one given then i think you

3771
02:09:58,629 --> 02:09:56,880
are entitled to go into abstraction

3772
02:10:00,870 --> 02:09:58,639
territory and invent

3773
02:10:02,069 --> 02:10:00,880
unknown things uh in order to account

3774
02:10:04,790 --> 02:10:02,079
for everything

3775
02:10:07,430 --> 02:10:04,800
i happen to think that we can make sense

3776
02:10:10,390 --> 02:10:07,440
of everything without having to take

3777
02:10:11,990 --> 02:10:10,400
that step of abstraction well what about

3778
02:10:13,510 --> 02:10:12,000
a standard sort of platonic argument

3779
02:10:17,189 --> 02:10:13,520
that goes something like this

3780
02:10:17,910 --> 02:10:17,199
uh well mines seem to be spatiotemporal

3781
02:10:19,350 --> 02:10:17,920
things

3782
02:10:22,229 --> 02:10:19,360
at least if we're doing what you said

3783
02:10:24,589 --> 02:10:22,239
which is what uh how i experience it

3784
02:10:26,390 --> 02:10:24,599
uh and yet i seem to need to invoke

3785
02:10:29,669 --> 02:10:26,400
non-spatiotemporal things

3786
02:10:31,990 --> 02:10:29,679
um you know that i love certain logical

3787
02:10:34,950 --> 02:10:32,000
principles for example that i need to

3788
02:10:35,510 --> 02:10:34,960
make use of in my reasoning um and and

3789
02:10:37,189 --> 02:10:35,520
trying to

3790
02:10:39,589 --> 02:10:37,199
like does the does the law of

3791
02:10:41,270 --> 02:10:39,599
non-contradiction have a spatio-temporal

3792
02:10:44,470 --> 02:10:41,280
existence that seems wrong

3793
02:10:45,669 --> 02:10:44,480
that seems to to not capture uh the kind

3794
02:10:48,470 --> 02:10:45,679
of entity it is

3795
02:10:49,430 --> 02:10:48,480
or most of math muscle right and so the

3796
02:10:51,830 --> 02:10:49,440
idea is

3797
02:10:53,589 --> 02:10:51,840
well and then and then which do i use to

3798
02:10:54,629 --> 02:10:53,599
explain which well i actually use the

3799
02:10:57,830 --> 02:10:54,639
logic

3800
02:10:59,990 --> 02:10:57,840
and the mathematics to explain

3801
02:11:01,270 --> 02:11:00,000
and make my inferential conclusions

3802
02:11:02,550 --> 02:11:01,280
about my consciousness

3803
02:11:05,109 --> 02:11:02,560
and those things don't seem to be

3804
02:11:07,109 --> 02:11:05,119
spatial temporal and therefore

3805
02:11:09,270 --> 02:11:07,119
and there you go and that's what i need

3806
02:11:12,709 --> 02:11:09,280
i need something other than mentality

3807
02:11:16,229 --> 02:11:12,719
in order to get intelligibility i think

3808
02:11:20,069 --> 02:11:16,239
the tendency or the the notion to

3809
02:11:23,350 --> 02:11:20,079
to postulate non-spatial temporal things

3810
02:11:24,149 --> 02:11:23,360
i think it's uh when we do that we are

3811
02:11:27,030 --> 02:11:24,159
confusing

3812
02:11:28,870 --> 02:11:27,040
a mental archetype with a thing for

3813
02:11:32,390 --> 02:11:28,880
instance aristotelian logic

3814
02:11:36,470 --> 02:11:32,400
it's something that um for which

3815
02:11:38,550 --> 02:11:36,480
there is no objective um proof

3816
02:11:40,310 --> 02:11:38,560
logic is a set of axioms for instance

3817
02:11:42,149 --> 02:11:40,320
using the law of excluded mid

3818
02:11:44,229 --> 02:11:42,159
middle that's an axiom there is an

3819
02:11:45,510 --> 02:11:44,239
entirely coherent alternative in logic

3820
02:11:48,470 --> 02:11:45,520
called intuitionism

3821
02:11:49,830 --> 02:11:48,480
which dispenses with the law of excluded

3822
02:11:53,189 --> 02:11:49,840
middle and it's valid

3823
02:11:55,910 --> 02:11:53,199
so logic is founded on a set of axioms

3824
02:11:58,069 --> 02:11:55,920
that appeal directly to our intuition

3825
02:12:00,950 --> 02:11:58,079
in a way that seems to dispense with the

3826
02:12:04,310 --> 02:12:00,960
need for argument it's it's self-evident

3827
02:12:06,550 --> 02:12:04,320
um the whole of mathematics in a sense

3828
02:12:07,510 --> 02:12:06,560
is is based on these things that are

3829
02:12:10,069 --> 02:12:07,520
self-evident

3830
02:12:10,790 --> 02:12:10,079
2 plus 2 is 4 by definition because we

3831
02:12:13,430 --> 02:12:10,800
make it so

3832
02:12:15,109 --> 02:12:13,440
right and we have arguments for instance

3833
02:12:17,030 --> 02:12:15,119
for y multiplying a negative and a

3834
02:12:17,910 --> 02:12:17,040
positive number of results in a negative

3835
02:12:20,310 --> 02:12:17,920
number

3836
02:12:21,990 --> 02:12:20,320
um but these are things that are not

3837
02:12:23,990 --> 02:12:22,000
empirical they're mental and yet they

3838
02:12:26,310 --> 02:12:24,000
seem to be entirely objective

3839
02:12:27,510 --> 02:12:26,320
so i would say the objectivity arises

3840
02:12:29,910 --> 02:12:27,520
from the fact that these are

3841
02:12:31,430 --> 02:12:29,920
archetypal patterns of mind these are

3842
02:12:33,910 --> 02:12:31,440
the natural harmonics

3843
02:12:34,790 --> 02:12:33,920
the natural ways in which mind gets

3844
02:12:37,030 --> 02:12:34,800
excited

3845
02:12:37,990 --> 02:12:37,040
the the intrinsic natural modes of

3846
02:12:39,990 --> 02:12:38,000
mentation

3847
02:12:41,910 --> 02:12:40,000
they aren't things and yet they are

3848
02:12:44,310 --> 02:12:41,920
objective because of that

3849
02:12:45,430 --> 02:12:44,320
so we don't need to postulate something

3850
02:12:48,470 --> 02:12:45,440
non-mental

3851
02:12:49,430 --> 02:12:48,480
to account for mental objectivity all we

3852
02:12:51,030 --> 02:12:49,440
need to understand

3853
02:12:52,790 --> 02:12:51,040
is that mind itself has some

3854
02:12:53,669 --> 02:12:52,800
preferential modes i mean that goes back

3855
02:12:56,950 --> 02:12:53,679
to jung and

3856
02:12:59,350 --> 02:12:56,960
goes back to plato's forms

3857
02:13:00,870 --> 02:12:59,360
so archetypes are just regularities of

3858
02:13:02,470 --> 02:13:00,880
behavior they don't need to be things

3859
02:13:04,629 --> 02:13:02,480
that exist

3860
02:13:06,390 --> 02:13:04,639
in in in a place somewhere i think that

3861
02:13:09,430 --> 02:13:06,400
roger penrose makes this mistake

3862
02:13:10,149 --> 02:13:09,440
i mean if i am to be so bold as to point

3863
02:13:13,189 --> 02:13:10,159
out

3864
02:13:13,990 --> 02:13:13,199
a mistake by roger penrose but roger is

3865
02:13:17,350 --> 02:13:14,000
a trialist

3866
02:13:19,990 --> 02:13:17,360
and what he sees as the domain of

3867
02:13:21,030 --> 02:13:20,000
values platonic values i think we can

3868
02:13:22,790 --> 02:13:21,040
account for those as

3869
02:13:24,870 --> 02:13:22,800
merely the natural frequencies of

3870
02:13:26,870 --> 02:13:24,880
excitation of mind we don't need to go

3871
02:13:29,109 --> 02:13:26,880
beyond mind

3872
02:13:29,990 --> 02:13:29,119
so i mean this is what i find

3873
02:13:32,149 --> 02:13:30,000
challenging because

3874
02:13:33,830 --> 02:13:32,159
it seems like this is getting into a

3875
02:13:37,510 --> 02:13:33,840
kind of normalism again

3876
02:13:39,750 --> 02:13:37,520
which is the i and that it gets

3877
02:13:41,510 --> 02:13:39,760
i find it very hard to reconcile that

3878
02:13:44,870 --> 02:13:41,520
with scientific practice

3879
02:13:46,790 --> 02:13:44,880
because i if i'm going to

3880
02:13:48,390 --> 02:13:46,800
the relationships between

3881
02:13:50,149 --> 02:13:48,400
spatio-temporal things are not

3882
02:13:51,510 --> 02:13:50,159
themselves spatial temporal

3883
02:13:53,350 --> 02:13:51,520
if i want to make the kinds of

3884
02:13:55,990 --> 02:13:53,360
inferences i'm making for example you're

3885
02:13:57,910 --> 02:13:56,000
making inferences about all of reality

3886
02:13:59,589 --> 02:13:57,920
and i take it that all of reality is not

3887
02:14:01,910 --> 02:13:59,599
itself a spatial temporal thing

3888
02:14:02,790 --> 02:14:01,920
oh i see you're right right and so

3889
02:14:04,870 --> 02:14:02,800
therefore

3890
02:14:05,910 --> 02:14:04,880
uh you have to invoke non-spatial

3891
02:14:09,270 --> 02:14:05,920
temporal

3892
02:14:10,550 --> 02:14:09,280
uh things uh and they're normative on us

3893
02:14:12,629 --> 02:14:10,560
we acquiescing them

3894
02:14:13,750 --> 02:14:12,639
that was plato's point we would say oh

3895
02:14:15,430 --> 02:14:13,760
this is better than that

3896
02:14:17,109 --> 02:14:15,440
yes and we we can move around in our

3897
02:14:18,390 --> 02:14:17,119
logics but but i don't think that's

3898
02:14:21,109 --> 02:14:18,400
ultimately problematic

3899
02:14:21,589 --> 02:14:21,119
um and the point i'm trying to make is

3900
02:14:24,069 --> 02:14:21,599
that's

3901
02:14:26,950 --> 02:14:24,079
radically other than my experience of my

3902
02:14:29,990 --> 02:14:26,960
mind which is as a spatial temporal

3903
02:14:33,270 --> 02:14:30,000
limited locatable perishing yet

3904
02:14:35,350 --> 02:14:33,280
and you know i i talked to my my sister

3905
02:14:36,950 --> 02:14:35,360
and she tells me and i think she's being

3906
02:14:38,470 --> 02:14:36,960
directly honest that there was a time

3907
02:14:40,390 --> 02:14:38,480
when i did not exist

3908
02:14:41,589 --> 02:14:40,400
and i take that to be the case but i

3909
02:14:43,109 --> 02:14:41,599
don't think she's lying

3910
02:14:45,189 --> 02:14:43,119
and i'm not a solipsist and i don't

3911
02:14:48,550 --> 02:14:45,199
think you're a solipsist um

3912
02:14:51,350 --> 02:14:48,560
and so it seems to me that there's

3913
02:14:51,990 --> 02:14:51,360
aspects of reality that are unlike my

3914
02:14:55,669 --> 02:14:52,000
mind

3915
02:14:57,109 --> 02:14:55,679
spatial temporal and these things are

3916
02:14:57,750 --> 02:14:57,119
not spatial temporal and yet they're

3917
02:15:00,550 --> 02:14:57,760
normative

3918
02:15:01,910 --> 02:15:00,560
on our decisions about what is real i

3919
02:15:04,310 --> 02:15:01,920
think your mind as an

3920
02:15:05,830 --> 02:15:04,320
individual person with private

3921
02:15:06,629 --> 02:15:05,840
conscience in their life i think that is

3922
02:15:09,030 --> 02:15:06,639
finite

3923
02:15:09,830 --> 02:15:09,040
i think our bodies our metabolism is

3924
02:15:12,149 --> 02:15:09,840
what

3925
02:15:13,750 --> 02:15:12,159
uh dissociation looks like when observed

3926
02:15:15,109 --> 02:15:13,760
from across a dissociative boundary and

3927
02:15:17,830 --> 02:15:15,119
dissociation comes from

3928
02:15:19,430 --> 02:15:17,840
it comes to an end but the underlying

3929
02:15:21,109 --> 02:15:19,440
mind which is the only thing that ever

3930
02:15:21,750 --> 02:15:21,119
existed i don't think that comes to an

3931
02:15:23,750 --> 02:15:21,760
end it's

3932
02:15:25,030 --> 02:15:23,760
the thing where all beginnings and ends

3933
02:15:27,510 --> 02:15:25,040
uh take place

3934
02:15:29,270 --> 02:15:27,520
um on what i mentioned about archetypes

3935
02:15:31,589 --> 02:15:29,280
and science

3936
02:15:33,430 --> 02:15:31,599
there's a paper written in 1960 by

3937
02:15:37,030 --> 02:15:33,440
eugene wigner

3938
02:15:40,149 --> 02:15:37,040
title i'll paraphrase it the amazing

3939
02:15:41,589 --> 02:15:40,159
effectiveness of mathematics to describe

3940
02:15:43,350 --> 02:15:41,599
the laws of nature or something like

3941
02:15:46,470 --> 02:15:43,360
this and he used the word

3942
02:15:48,149 --> 02:15:46,480
miracle 12 times in that paper and and

3943
02:15:51,350 --> 02:15:48,159
his his wonder was

3944
02:15:53,830 --> 02:15:51,360
why would axiomatic human thinking

3945
02:15:54,709 --> 02:15:53,840
the things we take to be self-evident

3946
02:15:57,669 --> 02:15:54,719
why would

3947
02:15:59,910 --> 02:15:57,679
those axioms of human mentation apply to

3948
02:16:02,310 --> 02:15:59,920
the behavior of the universe at large

3949
02:16:03,430 --> 02:16:02,320
that's a great mystery and i think

3950
02:16:05,669 --> 02:16:03,440
associating

3951
02:16:07,750 --> 02:16:05,679
the laws of nature to archetypes of the

3952
02:16:08,790 --> 02:16:07,760
same minds that underlies us and nature

3953
02:16:11,030 --> 02:16:08,800
in a way that we are

3954
02:16:12,310 --> 02:16:11,040
ontologically continuous with nature

3955
02:16:14,950 --> 02:16:12,320
would make sense of that

3956
02:16:16,790 --> 02:16:14,960
but i do understand the point you made

3957
02:16:19,030 --> 02:16:16,800
which is

3958
02:16:20,229 --> 02:16:19,040
if i frame everything in spatial

3959
02:16:23,109 --> 02:16:20,239
temporal terms

3960
02:16:24,069 --> 02:16:23,119
uh then i'm taking space-time as a sort

3961
02:16:26,709 --> 02:16:24,079
of objective

3962
02:16:27,109 --> 02:16:26,719
primary scaffolding of nature out there

3963
02:16:28,629 --> 02:16:27,119
and

3964
02:16:31,189 --> 02:16:28,639
do we have reasons to believe that to be

3965
02:16:32,950 --> 02:16:31,199
the case no we have plenty of reasons to

3966
02:16:34,950 --> 02:16:32,960
believe that that is precisely

3967
02:16:36,309 --> 02:16:34,960
not the case that's coming up from

3968
02:16:37,270 --> 02:16:36,319
neuroscience now it's coming up from

3969
02:16:39,669 --> 02:16:37,280
physics with

3970
02:16:40,549 --> 02:16:39,679
loop quantum gravity in which space time

3971
02:16:42,709 --> 02:16:40,559
is now

3972
02:16:43,990 --> 02:16:42,719
a derivative phenomenon of quantum

3973
02:16:46,230 --> 02:16:44,000
processes it's

3974
02:16:47,669 --> 02:16:46,240
not a pre-existing scaffolding of the

3975
02:16:49,990 --> 02:16:47,679
universe

3976
02:16:51,910 --> 02:16:50,000
so the problem is that space-time is

3977
02:16:54,070 --> 02:16:51,920
built into our language

3978
02:16:56,469 --> 02:16:54,080
our way of making arguments so i i

3979
02:16:58,150 --> 02:16:56,479
cannot escape that so i i

3980
02:17:00,070 --> 02:16:58,160
when i talk about excitations i'm

3981
02:17:02,309 --> 02:17:00,080
appealing to space-time because we think

3982
02:17:04,150 --> 02:17:02,319
in spatial temporal terms as can't put

3983
02:17:06,309 --> 02:17:04,160
it in triple hour two

3984
02:17:07,910 --> 02:17:06,319
space and times are space and time are

3985
02:17:11,589 --> 02:17:07,920
modes of our cognition

3986
02:17:14,309 --> 02:17:11,599
it if if i am to talk about something

3987
02:17:16,230 --> 02:17:14,319
without pre-assuming space and time i

3988
02:17:17,910 --> 02:17:16,240
can't even open my mouth

3989
02:17:19,990 --> 02:17:17,920
because language already presupposes

3990
02:17:21,830 --> 02:17:20,000
tenses uh

3991
02:17:23,830 --> 02:17:21,840
present past and future principles a

3992
02:17:25,030 --> 02:17:23,840
distinction between object and subject

3993
02:17:27,150 --> 02:17:25,040
which requires

3994
02:17:28,309 --> 02:17:27,160
space that was schopenhauer's principle

3995
02:17:29,910 --> 02:17:28,319
individualness

3996
02:17:31,429 --> 02:17:29,920
for two things to be different they have

3997
02:17:34,950 --> 02:17:31,439
to be within a certain

3998
02:17:37,030 --> 02:17:34,960
extended dimension um so

3999
02:17:39,509 --> 02:17:37,040
don't take me wrong i don't think space

4000
02:17:41,509 --> 02:17:39,519
time a primary is just that

4001
02:17:43,509 --> 02:17:41,519
if i try to be consistent with what i

4002
02:17:47,509 --> 02:17:43,519
actually think i can't open my mouth

4003
02:17:49,589 --> 02:17:47,519
so so everything i say that is framed

4004
02:17:51,270 --> 02:17:49,599
under the the notion of space and time

4005
02:17:51,910 --> 02:17:51,280
you should take it as what i believe to

4006
02:17:54,870 --> 02:17:51,920
be

4007
02:17:56,150 --> 02:17:54,880
penultimate truths they point at an

4008
02:17:59,110 --> 02:17:56,160
ultimate truth that i

4009
02:18:02,150 --> 02:17:59,120
can't capture uh can't corral into the

4010
02:18:04,230 --> 02:18:02,160
space-time framework of language

4011
02:18:06,230 --> 02:18:04,240
well i i'm happy with that i mean that's

4012
02:18:08,790 --> 02:18:06,240
uh i mean that that's a very

4013
02:18:09,270 --> 02:18:08,800
that is that is a neoplatonic conclusion

4014
02:18:10,950 --> 02:18:09,280
that

4015
02:18:13,270 --> 02:18:10,960
the the one as the ground of

4016
02:18:15,030 --> 02:18:13,280
intelligibility is not something that

4017
02:18:16,469 --> 02:18:15,040
uh that we can intelligibly grasp

4018
02:18:17,190 --> 02:18:16,479
because it affords all intelligible

4019
02:18:19,429 --> 02:18:17,200
grasping

4020
02:18:20,790 --> 02:18:19,439
and so it's by definition inherently a

4021
02:18:22,309 --> 02:18:20,800
mystery because we can't frame it

4022
02:18:23,669 --> 02:18:22,319
because it's behind all framing

4023
02:18:25,110 --> 02:18:23,679
and i think that that's going to follow

4024
02:18:26,309 --> 02:18:25,120
in any monism that you're going to have

4025
02:18:28,629 --> 02:18:26,319
something at the bottom

4026
02:18:29,509 --> 02:18:28,639
uh by the way i'm also honest so i don't

4027
02:18:31,589 --> 02:18:29,519
have a problem

4028
02:18:33,910 --> 02:18:31,599
with that uh i guess what i was pointing

4029
02:18:37,190 --> 02:18:33,920
back to was the phenomenology which is

4030
02:18:38,469 --> 02:18:37,200
it seems to me that um you i don't know

4031
02:18:40,230 --> 02:18:38,479
what to call it i think in

4032
02:18:42,230 --> 02:18:40,240
one of your videos you called it cosmic

4033
02:18:44,070 --> 02:18:42,240
consciousness i'm not i i don't want to

4034
02:18:45,509 --> 02:18:44,080
give you the wrong i want to talk about

4035
02:18:47,030 --> 02:18:45,519
the consciousness that isn't my

4036
02:18:48,469 --> 02:18:47,040
introspective personal consciousness

4037
02:18:50,469 --> 02:18:48,479
that's fine mind is a large cosmic

4038
02:18:52,709 --> 02:18:50,479
consciousness i find this perfectly good

4039
02:18:53,750 --> 02:18:52,719
descriptive terms which i i used cosmic

4040
02:18:56,709 --> 02:18:53,760
consciousness in like

4041
02:18:57,910 --> 02:18:56,719
in an academic paper on purpose

4042
02:18:59,669 --> 02:18:57,920
tongue-in-cheek a little bit

4043
02:19:01,349 --> 02:18:59,679
because i wanted to dispel this

4044
02:19:03,669 --> 02:19:01,359
association with new age cosmic

4045
02:19:07,349 --> 02:19:03,679
consciousness is perfectly descriptive

4046
02:19:07,750 --> 02:19:07,359
okay i won't i'm not i'm not invoking

4047
02:19:10,469 --> 02:19:07,760
any

4048
02:19:11,509 --> 02:19:10,479
new age woo-woo um i just wanted your

4049
02:19:13,429 --> 02:19:11,519
term for this

4050
02:19:15,349 --> 02:19:13,439
because there seems to be then it seems

4051
02:19:17,750 --> 02:19:15,359
to me a difference

4052
02:19:19,270 --> 02:19:17,760
a very significant difference in degree

4053
02:19:21,190 --> 02:19:19,280
or maybe a difference in kind

4054
02:19:23,349 --> 02:19:21,200
between my consciousness which seems to

4055
02:19:26,230 --> 02:19:23,359
be again a perishable

4056
02:19:26,709 --> 02:19:26,240
uh spatial temporally bound thing uh

4057
02:19:29,750 --> 02:19:26,719
that

4058
02:19:32,549 --> 02:19:29,760
is not fully present to itself um

4059
02:19:33,429 --> 02:19:32,559
and the the cosmic consciousness which

4060
02:19:35,910 --> 02:19:33,439
seems

4061
02:19:37,349 --> 02:19:35,920
to be very different um because i take

4062
02:19:41,669 --> 02:19:37,359
it that it ultimately

4063
02:19:44,870 --> 02:19:41,679
is identical to uh the the ground

4064
02:19:46,070 --> 02:19:44,880
the what i would call the one um and

4065
02:19:49,190 --> 02:19:46,080
which i take to not be

4066
02:19:49,670 --> 02:19:49,200
spatial temporal to be in no in some

4067
02:19:51,830 --> 02:19:49,680
sense

4068
02:19:53,349 --> 02:19:51,840
if it's one it has to be present to

4069
02:19:54,950 --> 02:19:53,359
itself throughout because if it's not

4070
02:19:57,110 --> 02:19:54,960
present to itself it's not one

4071
02:19:59,349 --> 02:19:57,120
and so there seems to be a radical

4072
02:20:01,910 --> 02:19:59,359
difference between my consciousness

4073
02:20:03,190 --> 02:20:01,920
and i assume your consciousness and the

4074
02:20:06,550 --> 02:20:03,200
the cosmic consciousness

4075
02:20:08,230 --> 02:20:06,560
and why isn't that that's really big

4076
02:20:10,389 --> 02:20:08,240
because you know spatial temporal and

4077
02:20:12,389 --> 02:20:10,399
mysterious and not and co-present to not

4078
02:20:13,830 --> 02:20:12,399
these are all big differences you know

4079
02:20:15,190 --> 02:20:13,840
and when you get enough differences in

4080
02:20:16,309 --> 02:20:15,200
degree don't you get a difference in

4081
02:20:18,630 --> 02:20:16,319
kind isn't it different

4082
02:20:19,990 --> 02:20:18,640
isn't that a different kind of thing i

4083
02:20:23,030 --> 02:20:20,000
don't know

4084
02:20:23,590 --> 02:20:23,040
okay but okay okay it's a common i i i

4085
02:20:25,429 --> 02:20:23,600
i'll

4086
02:20:26,950 --> 02:20:25,439
use a certain word and not individu

4087
02:20:28,950 --> 02:20:26,960
disrespect to you

4088
02:20:31,429 --> 02:20:28,960
it's just that it's a technical word i

4089
02:20:33,830 --> 02:20:31,439
think this is a common and ever more

4090
02:20:35,750 --> 02:20:33,840
popular fallacy the idea that

4091
02:20:36,870 --> 02:20:35,760
differences in degree can lead to a

4092
02:20:38,870 --> 02:20:36,880
difference in kind

4093
02:20:39,910 --> 02:20:38,880
i think life is a particular state of

4094
02:20:43,030 --> 02:20:39,920
consciousness

4095
02:20:44,389 --> 02:20:43,040
if you've ever had a high dose deep

4096
02:20:46,630 --> 02:20:44,399
psychedelic trip

4097
02:20:47,670 --> 02:20:46,640
you would know that that's not spatial

4098
02:20:49,990 --> 02:20:47,680
temporal you

4099
02:20:52,070 --> 02:20:50,000
you get into territories into certain

4100
02:20:55,030 --> 02:20:52,080
configurations or states of mind

4101
02:20:56,309 --> 02:20:55,040
that are not spatial temporal at all um

4102
02:20:57,910 --> 02:20:56,319
and you come back and you can't talk

4103
02:20:58,630 --> 02:20:57,920
about it because we just don't have the

4104
02:21:02,630 --> 02:20:58,640
words

4105
02:21:04,230 --> 02:21:02,640
but those are very concrete very present

4106
02:21:06,550 --> 02:21:04,240
states of mind i think life is a

4107
02:21:07,510 --> 02:21:06,560
particular state of consciousness a kind

4108
02:21:09,270 --> 02:21:07,520
of trance

4109
02:21:11,590 --> 02:21:09,280
and and we shouldn't attribute the

4110
02:21:15,030 --> 02:21:11,600
qualities of this particular state

4111
02:21:18,469 --> 02:21:15,040
to mind at large for instance i i always

4112
02:21:20,309 --> 02:21:18,479
warn people to not antrapomorphize mind

4113
02:21:24,150 --> 02:21:20,319
at large by attributing to it

4114
02:21:27,270 --> 02:21:24,160
our ability to to plan to act in a

4115
02:21:29,190 --> 02:21:27,280
premeditated way to self-reflect

4116
02:21:30,950 --> 02:21:29,200
i think mind at large is instinctive and

4117
02:21:33,910 --> 02:21:30,960
that's why the laws of nature

4118
02:21:35,429 --> 02:21:33,920
are so predictable and stable so i think

4119
02:21:37,830 --> 02:21:35,439
there's an enormous difference in

4120
02:21:39,830 --> 02:21:37,840
quality but not in kind i think both are

4121
02:21:42,790 --> 02:21:39,840
mental in the sense that both are

4122
02:21:46,070 --> 02:21:42,800
qualitative or experiential

4123
02:21:49,190 --> 02:21:46,080
well okay um i mean

4124
02:21:50,790 --> 02:21:49,200
these are i mean i think you get into

4125
02:21:52,309 --> 02:21:50,800
sorry these paradoxes if differences is

4126
02:21:55,270 --> 02:21:52,319
the degree don't eventually become

4127
02:21:56,950 --> 02:21:55,280
differences of kind uh and so i i do

4128
02:21:58,710 --> 02:21:56,960
think there is a need for that

4129
02:22:00,230 --> 02:21:58,720
but the belief of that is that you would

4130
02:22:02,710 --> 02:22:00,240
have to pinpoint

4131
02:22:04,150 --> 02:22:02,720
exactly at what point there is a sudden

4132
02:22:07,990 --> 02:22:04,160
translation in kind

4133
02:22:11,429 --> 02:22:08,000
because you see i can add more speakers

4134
02:22:14,309 --> 02:22:11,439
to my hi-fi but at what point does it

4135
02:22:15,670 --> 02:22:14,319
turn into a television you see what i

4136
02:22:21,349 --> 02:22:15,680
mean

4137
02:22:22,790 --> 02:22:21,359
a lot of individual units that can't do

4138
02:22:25,510 --> 02:22:22,800
computation together

4139
02:22:26,070 --> 02:22:25,520
and they together can do computation i

4140
02:22:28,790 --> 02:22:26,080
mean

4141
02:22:30,630 --> 02:22:28,800
and so uh there is there is there are

4142
02:22:32,230 --> 02:22:30,640
all those kinds of transitions

4143
02:22:33,670 --> 02:22:32,240
so well let's take that let's take that

4144
02:22:35,110 --> 02:22:33,680
an exam this is close to me because i'm

4145
02:22:37,910 --> 02:22:35,120
a computer engineer

4146
02:22:39,990 --> 02:22:37,920
first that was my first doctorate

4147
02:22:42,469 --> 02:22:40,000
everything

4148
02:22:43,990 --> 02:22:42,479
that that a computer does and look my

4149
02:22:45,030 --> 02:22:44,000
hobby is to build computers eight-bit

4150
02:22:47,110 --> 02:22:45,040
computers here

4151
02:22:48,469 --> 02:22:47,120
behind me there's a corner of society in

4152
02:22:50,389 --> 02:22:48,479
which i'm more or less famous for

4153
02:22:51,429 --> 02:22:50,399
building this this this computer from

4154
02:22:54,870 --> 02:22:51,439
scratch

4155
02:22:57,750 --> 02:22:54,880
everything a computer does can be done

4156
02:22:58,070 --> 02:22:57,760
with uh pipes water and pressure driven

4157
02:23:00,870 --> 02:22:58,080
sure

4158
02:23:02,469 --> 02:23:00,880
multiple realizability yeah yeah so all

4159
02:23:03,190 --> 02:23:02,479
those computations it's just a

4160
02:23:05,110 --> 02:23:03,200
difference of

4161
02:23:07,429 --> 02:23:05,120
two states zero or one so you can have a

4162
02:23:10,790 --> 02:23:07,439
valve that is shut or open pressure

4163
02:23:13,349 --> 02:23:10,800
driven evolves pipes and water so if you

4164
02:23:14,389 --> 02:23:13,359
people in strong ai now who say that a

4165
02:23:16,790 --> 02:23:14,399
complex enough

4166
02:23:18,150 --> 02:23:16,800
computer will be conscious the challenge

4167
02:23:21,429 --> 02:23:18,160
to them is to explain

4168
02:23:25,030 --> 02:23:21,439
at what point you add enough pipes

4169
02:23:27,590 --> 02:23:25,040
taps and water for a system that is only

4170
02:23:29,510 --> 02:23:27,600
pipe steps and water to become conscious

4171
02:23:30,950 --> 02:23:29,520
if it already doesn't start as being

4172
02:23:33,190 --> 02:23:30,960
conscious what is it

4173
02:23:34,309 --> 02:23:33,200
about extra pipe steps and water that

4174
02:23:36,070 --> 02:23:34,319
turns it conscious

4175
02:23:37,590 --> 02:23:36,080
i think what we are doing there is the

4176
02:23:39,349 --> 02:23:37,600
classical hand waving

4177
02:23:41,590 --> 02:23:39,359
we are trying to bury the problem under

4178
02:23:43,510 --> 02:23:41,600
a layer of obfuscating complexity

4179
02:23:45,349 --> 02:23:43,520
and then we hand wave our way thing and

4180
02:23:45,750 --> 02:23:45,359
then some something magical happens

4181
02:23:47,510 --> 02:23:45,760
there

4182
02:23:48,790 --> 02:23:47,520
and i can't explain it to you because

4183
02:23:51,990 --> 02:23:48,800
it's too complex

4184
02:23:54,150 --> 02:23:52,000
no it's still just pipes taps and water

4185
02:23:55,750 --> 02:23:54,160
if it didn't start as conscious it will

4186
02:23:58,389 --> 02:23:55,760
not become conscious

4187
02:24:00,550 --> 02:23:58,399
because the properties you change or add

4188
02:24:02,870 --> 02:24:00,560
by adding pipes taps and water

4189
02:24:04,790 --> 02:24:02,880
are incommensurable with the property

4190
02:24:06,630 --> 02:24:04,800
you want to emerge or the transitioning

4191
02:24:08,309 --> 02:24:06,640
kind you want to have produced

4192
02:24:09,750 --> 02:24:08,319
that would be my view and then if you

4193
02:24:11,349 --> 02:24:09,760
disagree i would challenge you to

4194
02:24:14,150 --> 02:24:11,359
explain to me exactly

4195
02:24:15,110 --> 02:24:14,160
how a sufficient high number of pipe

4196
02:24:18,150 --> 02:24:15,120
steps and water

4197
02:24:20,469 --> 02:24:18,160
can change something in kind

4198
02:24:21,429 --> 02:24:20,479
okay well let me try to finish the point

4199
02:24:24,550 --> 02:24:21,439
i was going to make

4200
02:24:26,389 --> 02:24:24,560
because i wanted to um because

4201
02:24:29,349 --> 02:24:26,399
i think you have an analogous problem

4202
02:24:31,270 --> 02:24:29,359
which is if cosmic mind

4203
02:24:32,710 --> 02:24:31,280
is not itself intelligent you now have

4204
02:24:34,150 --> 02:24:32,720
the problem of how does it get arranged

4205
02:24:38,230 --> 02:24:34,160
such that intelligence

4206
02:24:40,830 --> 02:24:38,240
emerges intelligent

4207
02:24:42,870 --> 02:24:40,840
you said it can't plan or it's act

4208
02:24:45,429 --> 02:24:42,880
instinctively you can have an

4209
02:24:46,389 --> 02:24:45,439
instinctive intelligence that is not

4210
02:24:49,910 --> 02:24:46,399
informed by

4211
02:24:51,830 --> 02:24:49,920
metacognition so

4212
02:24:53,270 --> 02:24:51,840
it's not capable of rationality then it

4213
02:24:55,510 --> 02:24:53,280
can't reflect on itself

4214
02:24:56,950 --> 02:24:55,520
and correct its own behavior in any

4215
02:24:58,309 --> 02:24:56,960
fashion that's what i think

4216
02:25:00,389 --> 02:24:58,319
because the laws of nature are so

4217
02:25:02,309 --> 02:25:00,399
predictable and because it took so many

4218
02:25:03,990 --> 02:25:02,319
years so many billions of three and a

4219
02:25:05,670 --> 02:25:04,000
half billion years of evolution

4220
02:25:07,110 --> 02:25:05,680
so we still have the problem of how

4221
02:25:09,190 --> 02:25:07,120
rationality emerges

4222
02:25:10,309 --> 02:25:09,200
right uh from things that are not

4223
02:25:12,389 --> 02:25:10,319
rational

4224
02:25:14,230 --> 02:25:12,399
oh that that that's not a hard problem

4225
02:25:17,270 --> 02:25:14,240
that's the problem of ai and ai

4226
02:25:18,309 --> 02:25:17,280
exists right and so what you admit

4227
02:25:19,830 --> 02:25:18,319
is i can take things that are

4228
02:25:21,349 --> 02:25:19,840
non-rational and put them together in

4229
02:25:24,790 --> 02:25:21,359
the right way and get rationality

4230
02:25:26,469 --> 02:25:24,800
yes yes yes okay so why and we

4231
02:25:27,750 --> 02:25:26,479
we now think that we can we got a pretty

4232
02:25:29,510 --> 02:25:27,760
good answer of how we can take

4233
02:25:32,230 --> 02:25:29,520
non-living stuff and put it together and

4234
02:25:34,389 --> 02:25:32,240
get living things yes

4235
02:25:38,870 --> 02:25:34,399
that's a more subtle problem i i would

4236
02:25:42,469 --> 02:25:40,550
okay so i've got a qualified yes for

4237
02:25:43,349 --> 02:25:42,479
life and i've got a strong yes for

4238
02:25:46,790 --> 02:25:43,359
intelligence

4239
02:25:47,990 --> 02:25:46,800
yeah and i i didn't i can't actually in

4240
02:25:51,349 --> 02:25:48,000
either one of those

4241
02:25:53,510 --> 02:25:51,359
say to you this is the line the dividing

4242
02:25:56,550 --> 02:25:53,520
point this is the threshold point

4243
02:25:56,870 --> 02:25:56,560
biology hasn't produced it and i but we

4244
02:26:00,309 --> 02:25:56,880
don't

4245
02:26:03,429 --> 02:26:00,319
it's not real it doesn't emerge

4246
02:26:04,870 --> 02:26:03,439
we say no no right it's it's precisely a

4247
02:26:07,910 --> 02:26:04,880
continuous change

4248
02:26:10,630 --> 02:26:07,920
not a bifurcation change um

4249
02:26:12,469 --> 02:26:10,640
and so again what's the difference

4250
02:26:15,670 --> 02:26:12,479
between consciousness

4251
02:26:17,590 --> 02:26:15,680
and you know it

4252
02:26:19,030 --> 02:26:17,600
i'm putting us we're pretty we're

4253
02:26:21,110 --> 02:26:19,040
talking about the emergence problem

4254
02:26:23,030 --> 02:26:21,120
if we are willing to countenance for for

4255
02:26:25,110 --> 02:26:23,040
life and we at one time we didn't

4256
02:26:26,230 --> 02:26:25,120
we thought no there's no way you know

4257
02:26:27,590 --> 02:26:26,240
and land vettel

4258
02:26:29,110 --> 02:26:27,600
and all that stuff and then for the

4259
02:26:30,710 --> 02:26:29,120
longest time no way no machine could

4260
02:26:31,349 --> 02:26:30,720
possibly be intelligent and now that's

4261
02:26:34,150 --> 02:26:31,359
becoming

4262
02:26:34,950 --> 02:26:34,160
less and less a plausible place to stand

4263
02:26:38,790 --> 02:26:34,960
what's the difference

4264
02:26:39,750 --> 02:26:38,800
then our concept of intelligence is

4265
02:26:42,710 --> 02:26:39,760
something that

4266
02:26:43,990 --> 02:26:42,720
human beings came up with there is

4267
02:26:46,870 --> 02:26:44,000
information processing

4268
02:26:49,030 --> 02:26:46,880
in nature we apply the label

4269
02:26:50,469 --> 02:26:49,040
intelligence not based on neutral

4270
02:26:52,710 --> 02:26:50,479
objective reasons

4271
02:26:53,750 --> 02:26:52,720
but based on what we feel is similar

4272
02:26:56,389 --> 02:26:53,760
enough to us

4273
02:26:58,550 --> 02:26:56,399
to be considered intelligent arguably a

4274
02:26:59,190 --> 02:26:58,560
paramecium is intelligent in the sense

4275
02:27:01,510 --> 02:26:59,200
that it

4276
02:27:02,230 --> 02:27:01,520
goes after the food it needs to and runs

4277
02:27:05,830 --> 02:27:02,240
away from

4278
02:27:08,630 --> 02:27:05,840
from from threats so

4279
02:27:09,349 --> 02:27:08,640
there is no such a thing as a defining

4280
02:27:11,429 --> 02:27:09,359
boundary

4281
02:27:13,750 --> 02:27:11,439
in which there is a difference in kind

4282
02:27:15,510 --> 02:27:13,760
all you have is information processing

4283
02:27:17,349 --> 02:27:15,520
we already start with it simple

4284
02:27:19,190 --> 02:27:17,359
information processing like a transition

4285
02:27:21,270 --> 02:27:19,200
between two in two states

4286
02:27:23,030 --> 02:27:21,280
it's all all over in nature you flip

4287
02:27:24,309 --> 02:27:23,040
your switch it's a transition between

4288
02:27:26,389 --> 02:27:24,319
one state to the other

4289
02:27:27,590 --> 02:27:26,399
and then we get more complex

4290
02:27:30,070 --> 02:27:27,600
interrelated

4291
02:27:31,510 --> 02:27:30,080
transitions of states there is no

4292
02:27:34,309 --> 02:27:31,520
fundamental

4293
02:27:36,230 --> 02:27:34,319
crossing of a boundary it's just where

4294
02:27:37,750 --> 02:27:36,240
are we comfortable to put the labor

4295
02:27:40,950 --> 02:27:37,760
intelligence in ai

4296
02:27:42,790 --> 02:27:40,960
we devised an arbitrary test to justify

4297
02:27:44,389 --> 02:27:42,800
that we call it the turing test

4298
02:27:46,230 --> 02:27:44,399
yeah and the turing test is problematic

4299
02:27:47,590 --> 02:27:46,240
but go ahead go ahead so there is no

4300
02:27:50,389 --> 02:27:47,600
fundamental transition it's just a

4301
02:27:53,830 --> 02:27:50,399
spectrum it's a continuum i would say

4302
02:27:57,030 --> 02:27:53,840
when searle in 1980 wrote

4303
02:27:59,030 --> 02:27:57,040
his paper on the chinese room experiment

4304
02:28:00,550 --> 02:27:59,040
he was appealing to conscious

4305
02:28:01,990 --> 02:28:00,560
understanding

4306
02:28:04,070 --> 02:28:02,000
his argument had nothing to do with

4307
02:28:07,670 --> 02:28:04,080
intelligence the mit guys were right

4308
02:28:09,670 --> 02:28:07,680
in their in their rebuttal to searle

4309
02:28:11,590 --> 02:28:09,680
because for them intelligence is just

4310
02:28:12,309 --> 02:28:11,600
more complex information processing so

4311
02:28:15,270 --> 02:28:12,319
the room

4312
02:28:16,550 --> 02:28:15,280
is intelligent if the manual the the

4313
02:28:18,630 --> 02:28:16,560
clerk is using

4314
02:28:20,550 --> 02:28:18,640
contains enough complex instructions for

4315
02:28:22,870 --> 02:28:20,560
that information processing to be

4316
02:28:24,830 --> 02:28:22,880
considered intelligent the intuition

4317
02:28:27,429 --> 02:28:24,840
sero was appealing to was

4318
02:28:28,550 --> 02:28:27,439
understanding not intelligence and what

4319
02:28:31,190 --> 02:28:28,560
is that intuition that

4320
02:28:32,870 --> 02:28:31,200
that intuition is the conscious

4321
02:28:34,630 --> 02:28:32,880
experience that goes

4322
02:28:35,910 --> 02:28:34,640
coupled with certain types of

4323
02:28:37,510 --> 02:28:35,920
information processing

4324
02:28:39,750 --> 02:28:37,520
that conscious experience we call

4325
02:28:41,190 --> 02:28:39,760
understanding and then the clerk inside

4326
02:28:43,590 --> 02:28:41,200
the room which is only

4327
02:28:44,870 --> 02:28:43,600
the only conscious entity there does not

4328
02:28:46,630 --> 02:28:44,880
have understanding

4329
02:28:48,550 --> 02:28:46,640
because he's not absorbing all the

4330
02:28:50,309 --> 02:28:48,560
information processing into his mind a

4331
02:28:53,030 --> 02:28:50,319
lot of it is in the manual

4332
02:28:55,750 --> 02:28:53,040
um so that's for intelligence as for

4333
02:28:58,309 --> 02:28:55,760
life i am sympathetic to you there but i

4334
02:29:01,110 --> 02:28:58,319
feel obliged to remind you that we have

4335
02:29:03,349 --> 02:29:01,120
not achieved a biogenesis we have

4336
02:29:06,469 --> 02:29:03,359
arguably achieved intelligence

4337
02:29:10,309 --> 02:29:06,479
there are server farms today

4338
02:29:11,510 --> 02:29:10,319
or you know computer farms using a lot

4339
02:29:13,429 --> 02:29:11,520
of

4340
02:29:15,349 --> 02:29:13,439
graphical accelerators running neural

4341
02:29:17,030 --> 02:29:15,359
networks which i would be

4342
02:29:18,710 --> 02:29:17,040
personally comfortable comfortable to

4343
02:29:21,429 --> 02:29:18,720
say this is intelligent

4344
02:29:22,870 --> 02:29:21,439
uh my intuition would acquiesce to that

4345
02:29:24,950 --> 02:29:22,880
immediately

4346
02:29:27,110 --> 02:29:24,960
so we have achieved that we've created

4347
02:29:29,429 --> 02:29:27,120
that but we have not created the life

4348
02:29:30,710 --> 02:29:29,439
from non-life what craig venter has

4349
02:29:33,670 --> 02:29:30,720
achieved was to

4350
02:29:34,950 --> 02:29:33,680
artificially create a dna molecule and

4351
02:29:37,030 --> 02:29:34,960
insert it

4352
02:29:38,790 --> 02:29:37,040
into a molecule that was already living

4353
02:29:40,389 --> 02:29:38,800
and then zap it with electricity and the

4354
02:29:41,270 --> 02:29:40,399
molecule changed the way it makes

4355
02:29:43,429 --> 02:29:41,280
proteins

4356
02:29:45,510 --> 02:29:43,439
but we have not achieved the biogenesis

4357
02:29:48,950 --> 02:29:45,520
so i think the jury is still

4358
02:29:50,870 --> 02:29:48,960
out but even if we one day achieve a

4359
02:29:51,510 --> 02:29:50,880
biogenesis and i personally think we

4360
02:29:55,349 --> 02:29:51,520
will

4361
02:29:57,990 --> 02:29:55,359
we've found an artificial way to induce

4362
02:29:59,990 --> 02:29:58,000
dissociation in the universal mind

4363
02:30:02,870 --> 02:30:00,000
because life metabolism is what

4364
02:30:06,070 --> 02:30:02,880
dissociative processes look like

4365
02:30:08,389 --> 02:30:06,080
okay so it seems to me like that

4366
02:30:10,309 --> 02:30:08,399
uh i don't want to get into the uh

4367
02:30:11,910 --> 02:30:10,319
exegetical disagreement about

4368
02:30:13,429 --> 02:30:11,920
how to interpret cyril in the chinese

4369
02:30:14,070 --> 02:30:13,439
room because i think there's independent

4370
02:30:15,590 --> 02:30:14,080
arguments

4371
02:30:16,710 --> 02:30:15,600
i think he ultimately said the art the

4372
02:30:17,750 --> 02:30:16,720
argument has to do with multiple

4373
02:30:19,190 --> 02:30:17,760
realizability

4374
02:30:21,030 --> 02:30:19,200
not with understanding i mean that's

4375
02:30:23,030 --> 02:30:21,040
what came out that was my interpretation

4376
02:30:24,710 --> 02:30:23,040
i'm i was not i didn't mean to attribute

4377
02:30:27,190 --> 02:30:24,720
to that to searle himself

4378
02:30:27,750 --> 02:30:27,200
okay okay so fair enough fair enough uh

4379
02:30:29,750 --> 02:30:27,760
but but

4380
02:30:31,110 --> 02:30:29,760
i i don't think we have to resolve the

4381
02:30:32,469 --> 02:30:31,120
interpretation of cyril to

4382
02:30:34,309 --> 02:30:32,479
continue our discussion is what i'm

4383
02:30:38,309 --> 02:30:34,319
saying um

4384
02:30:41,590 --> 02:30:38,319
so so

4385
02:30:44,870 --> 02:30:41,600
it sounds like that for you

4386
02:30:45,990 --> 02:30:44,880
the the the emergence of things like

4387
02:30:48,870 --> 02:30:46,000
life and intelligence

4388
02:30:50,950 --> 02:30:48,880
are not problematic but there's

4389
02:30:55,830 --> 02:30:50,960
something different for consciousness

4390
02:30:57,910 --> 02:30:55,840
and the problem i have with that is

4391
02:30:59,670 --> 02:30:57,920
we also have deep intuitions about the

4392
02:31:01,349 --> 02:30:59,680
deep relationship

4393
02:31:03,349 --> 02:31:01,359
and interdefining of intelligence and

4394
02:31:04,309 --> 02:31:03,359
consciousness most of our attributions

4395
02:31:07,270 --> 02:31:04,319
of consciousness

4396
02:31:08,790 --> 02:31:07,280
other than yours bernard i don't wanna i

4397
02:31:10,870 --> 02:31:08,800
don't wanna miss a tribute to you

4398
02:31:12,070 --> 02:31:10,880
they generally track with attributions

4399
02:31:15,550 --> 02:31:12,080
of intelligence

4400
02:31:17,830 --> 02:31:15,560
um and there are the measures of

4401
02:31:18,550 --> 02:31:17,840
intelligence measures of like working

4402
02:31:21,429 --> 02:31:18,560
memory

4403
02:31:22,389 --> 02:31:21,439
uh correlate also with you know models

4404
02:31:25,270 --> 02:31:22,399
of consciousness

4405
02:31:25,830 --> 02:31:25,280
uh the global workspace uh things like

4406
02:31:28,870 --> 02:31:25,840
that

4407
02:31:31,750 --> 02:31:28,880
uh consciousness seems to exist um

4408
02:31:32,710 --> 02:31:31,760
for those problems so you can compare

4409
02:31:34,630 --> 02:31:32,720
behavior

4410
02:31:36,230 --> 02:31:34,640
that which requires our consciousness

4411
02:31:38,550 --> 02:31:36,240
for behavior that doesn't

4412
02:31:40,230 --> 02:31:38,560
and consciousness seems to be uh those

4413
02:31:42,870 --> 02:31:40,240
situations that require

4414
02:31:44,389 --> 02:31:42,880
are our most sophisticated intelligence

4415
02:31:46,950 --> 02:31:44,399
situations that are complex

4416
02:31:48,389 --> 02:31:46,960
novel relatively unpredictable we can't

4417
02:31:50,070 --> 02:31:48,399
do those unconsciously

4418
02:31:51,750 --> 02:31:50,080
or semi-consciously we have to do them

4419
02:31:52,950 --> 02:31:51,760
full consciously so there seems to be

4420
02:31:55,910 --> 02:31:52,960
what i'm saying is

4421
02:31:56,550 --> 02:31:55,920
this it's very tight interweaving

4422
02:31:59,670 --> 02:31:56,560
between

4423
02:32:03,270 --> 02:31:59,680
intelligence and consciousness i

4424
02:32:06,710 --> 02:32:05,990
the way i would uh try to make sense of

4425
02:32:11,670 --> 02:32:06,720
this

4426
02:32:13,910 --> 02:32:11,680
well i would say that we are conflating

4427
02:32:16,230 --> 02:32:13,920
phenomenal consciousness with meta

4428
02:32:18,389 --> 02:32:16,240
consciousness when we make this argument

4429
02:32:19,830 --> 02:32:18,399
meta consciousness entails phenomenal

4430
02:32:22,389 --> 02:32:19,840
consciousness and

4431
02:32:24,150 --> 02:32:22,399
access consciousness using the

4432
02:32:28,870 --> 02:32:24,160
definitions from block

4433
02:32:34,550 --> 02:32:32,389
almost all research on consciousness

4434
02:32:36,790 --> 02:32:34,560
is actually exploring meta consciousness

4435
02:32:38,950 --> 02:32:36,800
in so far as it depends on the subject's

4436
02:32:39,990 --> 02:32:38,960
ability to report on what they are

4437
02:32:42,550 --> 02:32:40,000
experiencing

4438
02:32:43,270 --> 02:32:42,560
so for instance blind site studies we

4439
02:32:49,910 --> 02:32:43,280
say

4440
02:32:50,710 --> 02:32:49,920
but the subject is behaving as if he or

4441
02:32:53,510 --> 02:32:50,720
she were

4442
02:32:54,630 --> 02:32:53,520
saying so i would say what what what has

4443
02:32:57,349 --> 02:32:54,640
gone

4444
02:32:58,550 --> 02:32:57,359
broken there is the feedback loop that

4445
02:33:01,910 --> 02:32:58,560
is required for

4446
02:33:03,910 --> 02:33:01,920
reportability um giulio tanoni's

4447
02:33:05,990 --> 02:33:03,920
information integration theory that that

4448
02:33:06,469 --> 02:33:06,000
phi magic find number and then if you

4449
02:33:08,469 --> 02:33:06,479
cross the

4450
02:33:10,150 --> 02:33:08,479
number you're conscious well that's

4451
02:33:11,750 --> 02:33:10,160
empirically calibrated based on

4452
02:33:14,950 --> 02:33:11,760
subjective reports

4453
02:33:15,990 --> 02:33:14,960
so phi captures the moment you cross the

4454
02:33:20,790 --> 02:33:16,000
threshold of

4455
02:33:24,230 --> 02:33:20,800
experienced pure and simple

4456
02:33:27,670 --> 02:33:24,240
it's very hard to study experience

4457
02:33:29,349 --> 02:33:27,680
pure and simple in an objective setting

4458
02:33:31,190 --> 02:33:29,359
because you can only study that through

4459
02:33:32,230 --> 02:33:31,200
introspection it's only when you

4460
02:33:34,710 --> 02:33:32,240
suddenly become

4461
02:33:35,830 --> 02:33:34,720
meta conscious of something you were

4462
02:33:39,670 --> 02:33:35,840
already conscious of

4463
02:33:42,309 --> 02:33:39,680
all along that you realize oh darn

4464
02:33:43,030 --> 02:33:42,319
i i've noticed all along i knew this i

4465
02:33:46,150 --> 02:33:43,040
just didn't know

4466
02:33:47,750 --> 02:33:46,160
that i knew so this is the only way for

4467
02:33:49,190 --> 02:33:47,760
you to realize that there was an

4468
02:33:50,150 --> 02:33:49,200
experience the only thing that was

4469
02:33:53,190 --> 02:33:50,160
missing

4470
02:33:54,550 --> 02:33:53,200
was the metacognitive loop and and i

4471
02:33:57,510 --> 02:33:54,560
think topographically

4472
02:33:59,349 --> 02:33:57,520
it's really a loopy because um research

4473
02:34:01,190 --> 02:33:59,359
on the neurocorrelates of consciousness

4474
02:34:02,389 --> 02:34:01,200
always points out that you have to have

4475
02:34:05,670 --> 02:34:02,399
a cycle loop

4476
02:34:07,270 --> 02:34:05,680
closed um phi depends on that structure

4477
02:34:08,950 --> 02:34:07,280
of loops being closed that's what's

4478
02:34:11,429 --> 02:34:08,960
called information integration

4479
02:34:12,469 --> 02:34:11,439
previous research prior to tanoni points

4480
02:34:14,550 --> 02:34:12,479
out that you need this

4481
02:34:16,790 --> 02:34:14,560
feedback and feed forward ping-ponging

4482
02:34:19,030 --> 02:34:16,800
of information between two brain areas

4483
02:34:20,309 --> 02:34:19,040
for instance the the visual cortex and

4484
02:34:22,309 --> 02:34:20,319
the limbic system

4485
02:34:23,910 --> 02:34:22,319
if you cut that then you get for

4486
02:34:25,349 --> 02:34:23,920
instance blindside

4487
02:34:27,349 --> 02:34:25,359
and then we say oh the person is not

4488
02:34:30,150 --> 02:34:27,359
conscious of sight no the person is not

4489
02:34:32,389 --> 02:34:30,160
reporting the experience of seeing

4490
02:34:33,349 --> 02:34:32,399
but the person is behaving entirely

4491
02:34:35,349 --> 02:34:33,359
consistently

4492
02:34:36,389 --> 02:34:35,359
with the awareness of seeing the

4493
02:34:39,510 --> 02:34:36,399
phenomenal

4494
02:34:42,630 --> 02:34:39,520
conscious uh of vision so i

4495
02:34:44,150 --> 02:34:42,640
look this this is an area where so many

4496
02:34:45,750 --> 02:34:44,160
misunderstandings have happened

4497
02:34:46,630 --> 02:34:45,760
throughout the history of psychology and

4498
02:34:48,710 --> 02:34:46,640
neuroscience

4499
02:34:50,469 --> 02:34:48,720
if you read jung let's let's go back to

4500
02:34:53,910 --> 02:34:50,479
the early 20th century

4501
02:34:55,349 --> 02:34:53,920
if you read jung and you distill how he

4502
02:34:57,110 --> 02:34:55,359
defines consciousness

4503
02:34:58,630 --> 02:34:57,120
you will see that what he's talking

4504
02:34:59,910 --> 02:34:58,640
about is matter consciousness

4505
02:35:02,469 --> 02:34:59,920
he talks about consciousness

4506
02:35:04,870 --> 02:35:02,479
consciousness requiring an associative

4507
02:35:05,830 --> 02:35:04,880
web if you don't have this web of

4508
02:35:07,990 --> 02:35:05,840
associations

4509
02:35:09,030 --> 02:35:08,000
it's not conscious he talks about

4510
02:35:12,230 --> 02:35:09,040
consciousness

4511
02:35:13,750 --> 02:35:12,240
uh having to be coupled to a and if you

4512
02:35:15,030 --> 02:35:13,760
read what he means by the will what he

4513
02:35:17,910 --> 02:35:15,040
means is deliberation

4514
02:35:19,270 --> 02:35:17,920
reflection he's talking about reflection

4515
02:35:21,830 --> 02:35:19,280
self-reflection

4516
02:35:23,510 --> 02:35:21,840
he talks about children slowly becoming

4517
02:35:24,070 --> 02:35:23,520
conscious in the first years of their

4518
02:35:26,950 --> 02:35:24,080
lives

4519
02:35:27,670 --> 02:35:26,960
does he mean by that that his his five

4520
02:35:29,670 --> 02:35:27,680
children

4521
02:35:32,070 --> 02:35:29,680
did not experience anything until they

4522
02:35:33,990 --> 02:35:32,080
were seven of course he didn't mean that

4523
02:35:35,510 --> 02:35:34,000
um there are neuroscientists today who

4524
02:35:37,590 --> 02:35:35,520
define consciousness

4525
02:35:39,590 --> 02:35:37,600
as meta consciousness and i think it's

4526
02:35:42,469 --> 02:35:39,600
fine to use the word that way

4527
02:35:43,349 --> 02:35:42,479
the moment where it goes wrong is when

4528
02:35:48,309 --> 02:35:43,359
we

4529
02:35:50,469 --> 02:35:48,319
in fact

4530
02:35:51,990 --> 02:35:50,479
we are we mean matter consciousness and

4531
02:35:53,670 --> 02:35:52,000
we are not solving the problem of

4532
02:35:55,429 --> 02:35:53,680
consciousness at all

4533
02:35:56,950 --> 02:35:55,439
that's my grievance about what happens

4534
02:35:59,030 --> 02:35:56,960
today so is

4535
02:36:00,950 --> 02:35:59,040
meta consciousness though the only way

4536
02:36:04,150 --> 02:36:00,960
we have access

4537
02:36:05,830 --> 02:36:04,160
experiential access to our consciousness

4538
02:36:07,990 --> 02:36:05,840
to consciousness i don't i mean i don't

4539
02:36:11,190 --> 02:36:08,000
have access to your consciousness

4540
02:36:13,030 --> 02:36:11,200
um so

4541
02:36:15,110 --> 02:36:13,040
i think the best paper on this is from

4542
02:36:19,030 --> 02:36:15,120
2002

4543
02:36:21,510 --> 02:36:19,040
i forgot the name of the author um

4544
02:36:22,710 --> 02:36:21,520
i can send it to you offline afterwards

4545
02:36:25,110 --> 02:36:22,720
sure sure

4546
02:36:26,870 --> 02:36:25,120
the author explains that we have

4547
02:36:29,590 --> 02:36:26,880
experiences

4548
02:36:30,230 --> 02:36:29,600
and meta conscious consciousness is what

4549
02:36:34,230 --> 02:36:30,240
happens

4550
02:36:35,429 --> 02:36:34,240
when we re represent those experiences

4551
02:36:37,349 --> 02:36:35,439
so suppose we are talking about

4552
02:36:38,630 --> 02:36:37,359
perception then we have a direct

4553
02:36:40,230 --> 02:36:38,640
perceptual experience that's

4554
02:36:41,190 --> 02:36:40,240
representational by definition it's

4555
02:36:45,429 --> 02:36:41,200
perception

4556
02:36:48,150 --> 02:36:45,439
but at some point we re-represent

4557
02:36:49,830 --> 02:36:48,160
our own inner representations in order

4558
02:36:51,830 --> 02:36:49,840
to investigate

4559
02:36:53,910 --> 02:36:51,840
the contents of our own awareness that's

4560
02:36:56,030 --> 02:36:53,920
the point where meta consciousness

4561
02:36:57,510 --> 02:36:56,040
arises it's this step of

4562
02:36:59,510 --> 02:36:57,520
re-representation and

4563
02:37:00,710 --> 02:36:59,520
that's that's not built into experience

4564
02:37:02,790 --> 02:37:00,720
so if you'd say

4565
02:37:03,750 --> 02:37:02,800
do we need that to access our

4566
02:37:10,790 --> 02:37:03,760
experiences

4567
02:37:11,910 --> 02:37:10,800
but we need that to explicitly access

4568
02:37:13,910 --> 02:37:11,920
our experiences

4569
02:37:15,510 --> 02:37:13,920
if i go back to young everything jung

4570
02:37:17,270 --> 02:37:15,520
has said it all in old-fashioned

4571
02:37:20,870 --> 02:37:17,280
language but everything is in young

4572
02:37:24,710 --> 02:37:20,880
jung said in answer to job

4573
02:37:25,990 --> 02:37:24,720
god is omniscient but he doesn't know

4574
02:37:29,590 --> 02:37:26,000
how to consult

4575
02:37:30,469 --> 02:37:29,600
his omniscient the devil is much more

4576
02:37:33,429 --> 02:37:30,479
clever

4577
02:37:34,950 --> 02:37:33,439
in knowing how to consult uh omniscience

4578
02:37:36,469 --> 02:37:34,960
what is he talking about he's talking

4579
02:37:38,790 --> 02:37:36,479
about meta consciousness

4580
02:37:39,510 --> 02:37:38,800
so i think we have experiential access

4581
02:37:42,790 --> 02:37:39,520
to everything

4582
02:37:43,750 --> 02:37:42,800
in our own minds but we cannot

4583
02:37:47,110 --> 02:37:43,760
deliberately

4584
02:37:50,950 --> 02:37:47,120
access all of it because not all of it

4585
02:37:51,990 --> 02:37:50,960
can be placed under the microscope of

4586
02:37:53,990 --> 02:37:52,000
reflection

4587
02:37:55,510 --> 02:37:54,000
at our own will we don't have that much

4588
02:37:59,110 --> 02:37:55,520
control over our

4589
02:38:02,150 --> 02:37:59,120
over the entirety of the psyche

4590
02:38:06,389 --> 02:38:03,429
let me make sure i understand you so

4591
02:38:09,670 --> 02:38:06,399
what you're saying is we do have access

4592
02:38:10,550 --> 02:38:09,680
to experience that's non-reflective

4593
02:38:14,309 --> 02:38:10,560
access

4594
02:38:16,070 --> 02:38:14,319
yeah

4595
02:38:17,590 --> 02:38:16,080
sorry that sounds sorry that's

4596
02:38:18,230 --> 02:38:17,600
uncircular you're saying you don't want

4597
02:38:19,429 --> 02:38:18,240
to say

4598
02:38:21,910 --> 02:38:19,439
like you don't want to get into an

4599
02:38:23,670 --> 02:38:21,920
infinite request that i have qualia

4600
02:38:25,510 --> 02:38:23,680
qualia is what it is to experience

4601
02:38:35,429 --> 02:38:25,520
because then i'd have to have qualia for

4602
02:38:40,710 --> 02:38:38,790
but we cannot explicitly re-represent

4603
02:38:43,110 --> 02:38:40,720
everything that is experienced in our

4604
02:38:46,070 --> 02:38:43,120
own minds for instance i'd maintain

4605
02:38:47,910 --> 02:38:46,080
that five minutes ago you were

4606
02:38:50,230 --> 02:38:47,920
experiencing your breathing

4607
02:38:51,990 --> 02:38:50,240
but you were not re-representing the

4608
02:38:54,309 --> 02:38:52,000
experience of your breathing

4609
02:38:56,630 --> 02:38:54,319
therefore you were not reporting to

4610
02:38:58,950 --> 02:38:56,640
yourself i am breathing but i wasn't

4611
02:39:00,790 --> 02:38:58,960
experiencing my belief that africa was a

4612
02:39:02,870 --> 02:39:00,800
continent which i'm experiencing right

4613
02:39:05,990 --> 02:39:02,880
now

4614
02:39:06,950 --> 02:39:06,000
yeah what's that so what

4615
02:39:09,110 --> 02:39:06,960
what you're trying to say that that

4616
02:39:12,469 --> 02:39:09,120
belief well i take it yeah

4617
02:39:16,070 --> 02:39:12,479
i mean i i i i have the belief

4618
02:39:18,630 --> 02:39:16,080
uh but i'm not experiencing it until i

4619
02:39:19,750 --> 02:39:18,640
just did now africa is a continent but i

4620
02:39:22,950 --> 02:39:19,760
have the belief

4621
02:39:25,030 --> 02:39:22,960
because if you ask me i'll say yes

4622
02:39:26,309 --> 02:39:25,040
and uh when i look on a map i'll say

4623
02:39:28,150 --> 02:39:26,319
there's one of the continents but i'm

4624
02:39:29,990 --> 02:39:28,160
not doing that constantly

4625
02:39:31,429 --> 02:39:30,000
so that's not the evidence that's the

4626
02:39:32,389 --> 02:39:31,439
evidence that i have the belief it's not

4627
02:39:35,270 --> 02:39:32,399
the belief so i'm

4628
02:39:36,790 --> 02:39:35,280
not the i i reject behaviorism of belief

4629
02:39:38,550 --> 02:39:36,800
right the beliefs are something other

4630
02:39:40,070 --> 02:39:38,560
of the the behavior and you're nodding

4631
02:39:43,670 --> 02:39:40,080
so i think you agree with that

4632
02:39:45,750 --> 02:39:43,680
and yet um i wasn't experiencing that uh

4633
02:39:46,710 --> 02:39:45,760
and in fact most of what i believe i'm

4634
02:39:49,510 --> 02:39:46,720
not experiencing

4635
02:39:51,110 --> 02:39:49,520
right now right now yeah yeah i

4636
02:39:52,950 --> 02:39:51,120
understand the heart of your argument

4637
02:39:54,950 --> 02:39:52,960
and you and you're poking in the right

4638
02:39:56,950 --> 02:39:54,960
place because you already understood

4639
02:39:58,630 --> 02:39:56,960
that a direct implication of what i'm

4640
02:39:59,590 --> 02:39:58,640
saying is that everything has to be

4641
02:40:01,750 --> 02:39:59,600
experiential

4642
02:40:02,790 --> 02:40:01,760
there is no other place for psychic

4643
02:40:05,349 --> 02:40:02,800
content to

4644
02:40:07,670 --> 02:40:05,359
lay dormant waiting to be experienced

4645
02:40:09,349 --> 02:40:07,680
because by definition analytic idealism

4646
02:40:11,750 --> 02:40:09,359
says everything is experiential

4647
02:40:14,309 --> 02:40:11,760
so we have to have a mental mechanism

4648
02:40:17,110 --> 02:40:14,319
that is able to compartmentalize

4649
02:40:17,990 --> 02:40:17,120
experience such that you are not able to

4650
02:40:20,230 --> 02:40:18,000
access

4651
02:40:21,349 --> 02:40:20,240
all of those experiences and now of

4652
02:40:24,630 --> 02:40:21,359
course

4653
02:40:25,429 --> 02:40:24,640
what we mean by you is is part of of the

4654
02:40:27,670 --> 02:40:25,439
answer

4655
02:40:29,269 --> 02:40:27,680
but i would postulate two things as

4656
02:40:31,510 --> 02:40:29,279
mechanisms for that

4657
02:40:34,309 --> 02:40:31,520
one is what we've been talking about um

4658
02:40:37,870 --> 02:40:34,319
metacognition metacognition

4659
02:40:40,389 --> 02:40:37,880
not only amplifies the contents that are

4660
02:40:41,590 --> 02:40:40,399
re-represented because you can pile up

4661
02:40:43,030 --> 02:40:41,600
re-pile up

4662
02:40:45,110 --> 02:40:43,040
re-representation on top of

4663
02:40:46,309 --> 02:40:45,120
re-representation you can know that you

4664
02:40:48,790 --> 02:40:46,319
know that you know that you're

4665
02:40:50,309 --> 02:40:48,800
experiencing and so on and it obfuscates

4666
02:40:51,110 --> 02:40:50,319
everything else another mechanism i

4667
02:40:53,510 --> 02:40:51,120
would

4668
02:40:55,670 --> 02:40:53,520
put forward to use dissociation i mean

4669
02:40:57,670 --> 02:40:55,680
and i think there is now plenty of

4670
02:40:57,910 --> 02:40:57,680
empirical evidence that the association

4671
02:40:59,590 --> 02:40:57,920
is

4672
02:41:00,830 --> 02:40:59,600
strong enough to do exactly what i

4673
02:41:02,230 --> 02:41:00,840
needed to do which is to

4674
02:41:04,309 --> 02:41:02,240
compartmentalize

4675
02:41:06,309 --> 02:41:04,319
experience completely including your

4676
02:41:09,429 --> 02:41:06,319
experience of the knowledge of africa

4677
02:41:11,590 --> 02:41:09,439
because you know in 2015 people in

4678
02:41:13,910 --> 02:41:11,600
germany two researchers in germany

4679
02:41:15,349 --> 02:41:13,920
um they they they were dealing with a

4680
02:41:17,830 --> 02:41:15,359
woman who claimed to have

4681
02:41:20,230 --> 02:41:17,840
multiple dissociated altars amongst

4682
02:41:22,550 --> 02:41:20,240
which two claimed to be

4683
02:41:24,389 --> 02:41:22,560
blind although there was nothing wrong

4684
02:41:26,230 --> 02:41:24,399
physically with the woman's abilities

4685
02:41:27,910 --> 02:41:26,240
ability to see and the host personality

4686
02:41:29,750 --> 02:41:27,920
could see perfectly well

4687
02:41:32,389 --> 02:41:29,760
so they had this brilliant idea of

4688
02:41:35,590 --> 02:41:32,399
hooking her up to an eeg cap

4689
02:41:36,630 --> 02:41:35,600
uh and measuring her visual cortex

4690
02:41:39,830 --> 02:41:36,640
activity

4691
02:41:41,590 --> 02:41:39,840
while a sighted altar was in control

4692
02:41:43,830 --> 02:41:41,600
and then there was normal visual cortex

4693
02:41:46,950 --> 02:41:43,840
activity and when the blind alter

4694
02:41:49,269 --> 02:41:46,960
would uh take executive control visual

4695
02:41:51,429 --> 02:41:49,279
cortex reactivity would disappear

4696
02:41:53,030 --> 02:41:51,439
even though the woman's eyes were wide

4697
02:41:53,750 --> 02:41:53,040
open and things were happening in front

4698
02:41:57,030 --> 02:41:53,760
of her

4699
02:41:58,870 --> 02:41:57,040
now dissociation is powerful enough to

4700
02:42:01,510 --> 02:41:58,880
be literally blinding

4701
02:42:03,190 --> 02:42:01,520
so i would think of a hierarchy of

4702
02:42:04,950 --> 02:42:03,200
dissociative processes we know many

4703
02:42:07,429 --> 02:42:04,960
types of dissociative processes

4704
02:42:08,790 --> 02:42:07,439
not only forgetting things but losing

4705
02:42:10,630 --> 02:42:08,800
the sense of ownership to your own

4706
02:42:12,550 --> 02:42:10,640
memories even though you still remember

4707
02:42:14,870 --> 02:42:12,560
the memories but they feel like they are

4708
02:42:17,429 --> 02:42:14,880
alien memories somebody else's memories

4709
02:42:19,269 --> 02:42:17,439
all kinds of dissociation all different

4710
02:42:21,830 --> 02:42:19,279
degrees of dissociation

4711
02:42:23,670 --> 02:42:21,840
and multiple levels of re-representation

4712
02:42:25,510 --> 02:42:23,680
hierarchical re-representation

4713
02:42:27,670 --> 02:42:25,520
i would put forward to you that these

4714
02:42:29,510 --> 02:42:27,680
two things these two complex processes

4715
02:42:30,150 --> 02:42:29,520
that we know happen the existing nature

4716
02:42:32,630 --> 02:42:30,160
there is no

4717
02:42:33,590 --> 02:42:32,640
empirical doubt about it they are

4718
02:42:36,309 --> 02:42:33,600
sufficient

4719
02:42:36,870 --> 02:42:36,319
to compartmentalize mind in such a way

4720
02:42:39,910 --> 02:42:36,880
that you

4721
02:42:40,710 --> 02:42:39,920
think a lot of things that are happening

4722
02:42:46,870 --> 02:42:40,720
in

4723
02:42:49,030 --> 02:42:46,880
to you you may be dissociated from them

4724
02:42:50,870 --> 02:42:49,040
you may not be re-representing them you

4725
02:42:53,950 --> 02:42:50,880
may be obfuscating them

4726
02:42:55,910 --> 02:42:53,960
all kinds of hierarchical levels of of

4727
02:42:57,429 --> 02:42:55,920
compartmentalizing processes may be

4728
02:42:59,510 --> 02:42:57,439
taking place and i submit to you that

4729
02:43:01,750 --> 02:42:59,520
although this sounds complex

4730
02:43:03,670 --> 02:43:01,760
it's a lot more plausible and less

4731
02:43:05,590 --> 02:43:03,680
complex than the alternatives

4732
02:43:07,590 --> 02:43:05,600
like the combination problem in

4733
02:43:09,830 --> 02:43:07,600
bottom-up pan psychism or

4734
02:43:11,349 --> 02:43:09,840
constitutive pensionism or the heart

4735
02:43:17,269 --> 02:43:11,359
problem of consciousness for which we

4736
02:43:25,110 --> 02:43:22,070
so i guess

4737
02:43:27,110 --> 02:43:25,120
you're willing to countenance the

4738
02:43:28,790 --> 02:43:27,120
existence of processes that are outside

4739
02:43:30,550 --> 02:43:28,800
consciousness modifying it because

4740
02:43:33,030 --> 02:43:30,560
that's what dissociation is

4741
02:43:34,150 --> 02:43:33,040
i mean if it's blind your consciousness

4742
02:43:36,389 --> 02:43:34,160
well whose consciousness

4743
02:43:37,670 --> 02:43:36,399
is it residing is it residing in cosmic

4744
02:43:39,590 --> 02:43:37,680
mind consciousness

4745
02:43:41,030 --> 02:43:39,600
i think there is only one consciousness

4746
02:43:44,630 --> 02:43:41,040
and what we consider to be

4747
02:43:45,990 --> 02:43:44,640
us is a dissociative complex of that one

4748
02:43:47,830 --> 02:43:46,000
consciousness

4749
02:43:50,550 --> 02:43:47,840
so is the one but where is the

4750
02:43:54,389 --> 02:43:50,560
dissociation where does it exist

4751
02:43:56,710 --> 02:43:54,399
in in the one consciousness who yeah but

4752
02:43:58,710 --> 02:43:56,720
some consciousness must be aware of it

4753
02:44:00,790 --> 02:43:58,720
so is the cosmic consciousness aware of

4754
02:44:04,230 --> 02:44:00,800
the dissociation

4755
02:44:06,790 --> 02:44:04,240
that's what consciousness it means

4756
02:44:08,630 --> 02:44:06,800
the dissociation from both sides from

4757
02:44:10,710 --> 02:44:08,640
the inner side which is us we are part

4758
02:44:12,950 --> 02:44:10,720
of nature we are not a separate entity

4759
02:44:15,269 --> 02:44:12,960
and it experiences the dissociation from

4760
02:44:19,349 --> 02:44:15,279
the other side the side of the inanimate

4761
02:44:22,630 --> 02:44:19,359
universe and and those experiences

4762
02:44:23,190 --> 02:44:22,640
are presented to us in the form that we

4763
02:44:24,950 --> 02:44:23,200
call

4764
02:44:27,910 --> 02:44:24,960
the inanimate universe which is a

4765
02:44:29,910 --> 02:44:27,920
representation of what is essentially

4766
02:44:32,070 --> 02:44:29,920
natural instinctive mental processes

4767
02:44:35,590 --> 02:44:32,080
unfolding beyond the boundary of our own

4768
02:44:37,670 --> 02:44:35,600
dissociation so

4769
02:44:39,680 --> 02:44:37,680
schopenhauer it's it's the will inside

4770
02:44:44,469 --> 02:44:39,690
and it's the wheel outside

4771
02:44:44,479 --> 02:44:48,870
so why does this dissociation occur

4772
02:44:53,429 --> 02:44:52,630
it's a question that that um i get all

4773
02:44:56,469 --> 02:44:53,439
the time

4774
02:44:58,950 --> 02:44:56,479
um i i will answer but i i

4775
02:44:59,990 --> 02:44:58,960
first invite you to ask yourself why

4776
02:45:03,670 --> 02:45:00,000
there needs to be

4777
02:45:05,910 --> 02:45:03,680
a why um is anything else in nature well

4778
02:45:08,469 --> 02:45:05,920
no no wait wait there does because

4779
02:45:09,510 --> 02:45:08,479
your whole i mean the whole defense

4780
02:45:12,150 --> 02:45:09,520
depends

4781
02:45:13,510 --> 02:45:12,160
on the dissociations and the differences

4782
02:45:15,590 --> 02:45:13,520
between metacognition

4783
02:45:17,110 --> 02:45:15,600
and dissociated cognition that is the

4784
02:45:20,469 --> 02:45:17,120
main thing you use

4785
02:45:24,070 --> 02:45:20,479
to explain the extr the external world

4786
02:45:26,150 --> 02:45:24,080
so if that if if i don't have any

4787
02:45:28,630 --> 02:45:26,160
principles by which this operates

4788
02:45:29,990 --> 02:45:28,640
then it's not clear to me that i've

4789
02:45:32,710 --> 02:45:30,000
gained anything

4790
02:45:34,309 --> 02:45:32,720
uh by it's just saying oh there's well

4791
02:45:36,870 --> 02:45:34,319
there's an external world

4792
02:45:37,670 --> 02:45:36,880
right and i don't quite know how that

4793
02:45:39,429 --> 02:45:37,680
works

4794
02:45:41,269 --> 02:45:39,439
anymore then you can explain to me how

4795
02:45:42,070 --> 02:45:41,279
the dissociation and the metacognitive

4796
02:45:43,510 --> 02:45:42,080
leveling works

4797
02:45:45,429 --> 02:45:43,520
yeah okay i understand what you mean now

4798
02:45:47,269 --> 02:45:45,439
you didn't you were not asking for a

4799
02:45:49,670 --> 02:45:47,279
reason you were asking for

4800
02:45:51,190 --> 02:45:49,680
a process a mechanism i understand it

4801
02:45:53,510 --> 02:45:51,200
now

4802
02:45:54,950 --> 02:45:53,520
we will answer that question once we

4803
02:45:57,830 --> 02:45:54,960
figure out how

4804
02:45:58,870 --> 02:45:57,840
abiogenesis ever happened how life arose

4805
02:46:00,950 --> 02:45:58,880
from non-life

4806
02:46:02,950 --> 02:46:00,960
because i would submit to you that from

4807
02:46:04,309 --> 02:46:02,960
the point of view of representation

4808
02:46:06,710 --> 02:46:04,319
the kantian phenomena the

4809
02:46:08,950 --> 02:46:06,720
schopenhauerian representation

4810
02:46:09,990 --> 02:46:08,960
what that process looked like was the

4811
02:46:12,230 --> 02:46:10,000
emergence of life

4812
02:46:14,230 --> 02:46:12,240
because for me life is the extrinsic

4813
02:46:16,230 --> 02:46:14,240
appearance of dissociation

4814
02:46:17,990 --> 02:46:16,240
so the answer to your question is

4815
02:46:19,830 --> 02:46:18,000
exactly the same as the answer to the

4816
02:46:20,630 --> 02:46:19,840
question how did life arose from

4817
02:46:21,830 --> 02:46:20,640
non-life

4818
02:46:23,510 --> 02:46:21,840
it's just that you're looking at the

4819
02:46:25,030 --> 02:46:23,520
same process from two perspectives a

4820
02:46:26,950 --> 02:46:25,040
first person perspective

4821
02:46:28,790 --> 02:46:26,960
in an outside third person perspective

4822
02:46:30,389 --> 02:46:28,800
the perspective of representation

4823
02:46:32,389 --> 02:46:30,399
but it's one in the same process and

4824
02:46:34,389 --> 02:46:32,399
therefore it follows one in the same

4825
02:46:37,670 --> 02:46:34,399
mechanism

4826
02:46:39,750 --> 02:46:37,680
if there is a need to have a

4827
02:46:41,590 --> 02:46:39,760
why beyond the mechanism like why did

4828
02:46:43,190 --> 02:46:41,600
the universe do this

4829
02:46:44,630 --> 02:46:43,200
i don't think there is a need for that

4830
02:46:46,469 --> 02:46:44,640
but if there were

4831
02:46:48,870 --> 02:46:46,479
yeah i wasn't asking for a motive you

4832
02:46:52,870 --> 02:46:48,880
know okay okay

4833
02:46:54,790 --> 02:46:52,880
i was so i i mean i take it that that

4834
02:46:56,550 --> 02:46:54,800
you're saying that there are processes

4835
02:46:59,750 --> 02:46:56,560
that are self-organizing

4836
02:47:02,150 --> 02:46:59,760
in some fashion uh because we

4837
02:47:03,830 --> 02:47:02,160
right i i you even use that metaphor in

4838
02:47:07,190 --> 02:47:03,840
a couple of your videos you talk about

4839
02:47:10,070 --> 02:47:07,200
eddies within the river yeah yeah

4840
02:47:11,269 --> 02:47:10,080
and life is a lot sorry no no i'm not

4841
02:47:12,070 --> 02:47:11,279
making accusations i'm just trying to

4842
02:47:13,910 --> 02:47:12,080
making sure that i'm

4843
02:47:15,510 --> 02:47:13,920
i'm getting you correctly and whatever

4844
02:47:16,870 --> 02:47:15,520
life is it's it's a very complex

4845
02:47:18,550 --> 02:47:16,880
self-organizing thing

4846
02:47:20,389 --> 02:47:18,560
i mean and i actually think that varela

4847
02:47:22,070 --> 02:47:20,399
is right it's an autopoetic thing and

4848
02:47:24,230 --> 02:47:22,080
not just a self-organizing thing

4849
02:47:25,990 --> 02:47:24,240
and that's that's what allows me to say

4850
02:47:26,309 --> 02:47:26,000
that the paramecium is to some degree

4851
02:47:30,070 --> 02:47:26,319
and

4852
02:47:31,670 --> 02:47:30,080
because the tornado does not do anything

4853
02:47:34,230 --> 02:47:31,680
it does not seek out the conditions that

4854
02:47:37,910 --> 02:47:34,240
produce protect or promote its existence

4855
02:47:40,469 --> 02:47:37,920
and the paramecium does um and so

4856
02:47:41,349 --> 02:47:40,479
i'm with you all the way what i'm

4857
02:47:43,910 --> 02:47:41,359
putting forward

4858
02:47:45,590 --> 02:47:43,920
does not require any change in our

4859
02:47:49,190 --> 02:47:45,600
scientific understanding of

4860
02:47:52,230 --> 02:47:49,200
how life works and how it arose it just

4861
02:47:53,590 --> 02:47:52,240
provides a a another perspective to the

4862
02:47:55,670 --> 02:47:53,600
same process

4863
02:47:57,030 --> 02:47:55,680
i'm saying that there is actually an

4864
02:47:59,429 --> 02:47:57,040
inner perspective

4865
02:48:00,230 --> 02:47:59,439
that the representation is not the whole

4866
02:48:04,389 --> 02:48:00,240
story

4867
02:48:05,510 --> 02:48:04,399
representation of the process so

4868
02:48:07,750 --> 02:48:05,520
knowledge gained

4869
02:48:09,269 --> 02:48:07,760
by looking at the process as it unfolds

4870
02:48:09,910 --> 02:48:09,279
in the physical world this valid

4871
02:48:11,830 --> 02:48:09,920
knowledge

4872
02:48:14,070 --> 02:48:11,840
all i'm saying is that the thing in

4873
02:48:14,870 --> 02:48:14,080
itself which lies behind how it's

4874
02:48:17,349 --> 02:48:14,880
represented

4875
02:48:19,349 --> 02:48:17,359
by our perception cognitive apparatus

4876
02:48:22,309 --> 02:48:19,359
that thing in itself is mental

4877
02:48:24,070 --> 02:48:22,319
and it is of a dissociative character

4878
02:48:27,110 --> 02:48:24,080
but it's not changing any science

4879
02:48:28,870 --> 02:48:27,120
no no but yeah i i get that i i would

4880
02:48:30,630 --> 02:48:28,880
not uh

4881
02:48:32,469 --> 02:48:30,640
i hope i wasn't implying that because i

4882
02:48:35,429 --> 02:48:32,479
didn't i didn't see you saying that

4883
02:48:36,790 --> 02:48:35,439
um but that's that's sort of the what

4884
02:48:39,510 --> 02:48:36,800
the problem i'm coming up with

4885
02:48:40,389 --> 02:48:39,520
it looks like the science stays the same

4886
02:48:45,590 --> 02:48:40,399
um

4887
02:48:47,269 --> 02:48:45,600
you invoke the principle of parsimony

4888
02:48:49,030 --> 02:48:47,279
i'll invoke a principle which is

4889
02:48:50,550 --> 02:48:49,040
don't invoke in your explanation an

4890
02:48:51,269 --> 02:48:50,560
entity more controversial than the

4891
02:48:53,269 --> 02:48:51,279
entity

4892
02:48:54,950 --> 02:48:53,279
in the thing you're trying to explain

4893
02:48:56,389 --> 02:48:54,960
and you're ultimately invoking what

4894
02:48:57,750 --> 02:48:56,399
looks to me like god

4895
02:48:59,670 --> 02:48:57,760
um which i would need independent

4896
02:49:02,469 --> 02:48:59,680
evidence for this con i mean

4897
02:49:03,349 --> 02:49:02,479
other than right in in a circular

4898
02:49:05,110 --> 02:49:03,359
fashion i would need an

4899
02:49:06,389 --> 02:49:05,120
i would need independent evidence for

4900
02:49:09,510 --> 02:49:06,399
cosmic mind

4901
02:49:12,150 --> 02:49:09,520
right in in order to

4902
02:49:13,910 --> 02:49:12,160
make this argument run and that's been a

4903
02:49:15,990 --> 02:49:13,920
very problematic thing to do

4904
02:49:17,510 --> 02:49:16,000
for a very very long time the thing is

4905
02:49:19,030 --> 02:49:17,520
you're appealing to controversial

4906
02:49:23,110 --> 02:49:19,040
something controversial which is an

4907
02:49:27,110 --> 02:49:25,590
thing is it controversial or not it's

4908
02:49:30,550 --> 02:49:27,120
entirely subjective

4909
02:49:32,150 --> 02:49:30,560
i didn't talk about god anywhere i even

4910
02:49:33,910 --> 02:49:32,160
volunteered to you that i think this

4911
02:49:36,469 --> 02:49:33,920
universal mind is instinctive

4912
02:49:38,230 --> 02:49:36,479
and naturalistic it's not premeditated

4913
02:49:41,670 --> 02:49:38,240
it's not anthropomorphic

4914
02:49:43,590 --> 02:49:41,680
so how that you attribute

4915
02:49:44,870 --> 02:49:43,600
the quality of being controversial to it

4916
02:49:46,790 --> 02:49:44,880
i would

4917
02:49:50,070 --> 02:49:46,800
dare to submit to you that it's an

4918
02:49:53,190 --> 02:49:50,080
entirely subjective value judgment

4919
02:49:54,790 --> 02:49:53,200
no okay what i meant was typical so

4920
02:49:56,950 --> 02:49:54,800
other than that let's try to make it a

4921
02:49:57,510 --> 02:49:56,960
little bit more formal uh that i don't

4922
02:50:01,429 --> 02:49:57,520
invoke

4923
02:50:04,150 --> 02:50:01,439
something that requires argumentation uh

4924
02:50:05,349 --> 02:50:04,160
right as much as the argument i'm giving

4925
02:50:07,349 --> 02:50:05,359
um

4926
02:50:09,269 --> 02:50:07,359
i'll submit to you that mine is the

4927
02:50:10,710 --> 02:50:09,279
simplest in terms of argumentation it

4928
02:50:12,950 --> 02:50:10,720
requires no miracle

4929
02:50:15,030 --> 02:50:12,960
it requires no strong emergency it

4930
02:50:17,030 --> 02:50:15,040
requires no magical combination of

4931
02:50:19,750 --> 02:50:17,040
fundamentally separate subjective points

4932
02:50:21,590 --> 02:50:19,760
of view and there is a host of empirical

4933
02:50:25,190 --> 02:50:21,600
substantiation for it

4934
02:50:29,030 --> 02:50:25,200
beat that um

4935
02:50:31,030 --> 02:50:29,040
well i mean i i still think you have the

4936
02:50:31,670 --> 02:50:31,040
equivalent of what the pan psychist has

4937
02:50:34,630 --> 02:50:31,680
you have an

4938
02:50:35,429 --> 02:50:34,640
explanation this needs to be forthcoming

4939
02:50:39,030 --> 02:50:35,439
of how i get

4940
02:50:41,750 --> 02:50:39,040
living minded rational uh

4941
02:50:42,550 --> 02:50:41,760
entities like me out of a mind that is

4942
02:50:49,349 --> 02:50:42,560
not

4943
02:50:51,830 --> 02:50:49,359
capable of rational etc etc etc it seems

4944
02:50:55,269 --> 02:50:51,840
to me that i don't know what i've gained

4945
02:50:56,790 --> 02:50:55,279
by replacing the external world

4946
02:50:58,469 --> 02:50:56,800
from which i have to explain

4947
02:50:59,349 --> 02:50:58,479
intelligence and consciousness and

4948
02:51:01,990 --> 02:50:59,359
rationality

4949
02:51:03,030 --> 02:51:02,000
from saying well there's this other mind

4950
02:51:06,309 --> 02:51:03,040
out there

4951
02:51:07,990 --> 02:51:06,319
that is but it's it's not capable

4952
02:51:10,150 --> 02:51:08,000
it doesn't have rationality it doesn't

4953
02:51:11,990 --> 02:51:10,160
have personality it doesn't have

4954
02:51:13,670 --> 02:51:12,000
all of the features of god for example

4955
02:51:16,230 --> 02:51:13,680
and it's and

4956
02:51:17,830 --> 02:51:16,240
and right and and and then there's some

4957
02:51:19,990 --> 02:51:17,840
self-organizing process that

4958
02:51:20,870 --> 02:51:20,000
emerges well that sounds to me like well

4959
02:51:22,230 --> 02:51:20,880
there's matter

4960
02:51:24,309 --> 02:51:22,240
it doesn't have all these properties

4961
02:51:26,790 --> 02:51:24,319
there's some self-organizing process

4962
02:51:28,710 --> 02:51:26,800
and it and mind and life emerge what's

4963
02:51:32,070 --> 02:51:28,720
the difference between the two moves

4964
02:51:33,030 --> 02:51:32,080
if you think it's implausibly complex to

4965
02:51:35,750 --> 02:51:33,040
say

4966
02:51:37,190 --> 02:51:35,760
that complex minds like ours have

4967
02:51:40,389 --> 02:51:37,200
evolved from a very

4968
02:51:42,550 --> 02:51:40,399
simple phenomenal substrate imagine how

4969
02:51:43,670 --> 02:51:42,560
implausible it is to say that complex

4970
02:51:46,870 --> 02:51:43,680
minds like ours

4971
02:51:49,349 --> 02:51:46,880
emerged out of no mind which one is

4972
02:51:53,190 --> 02:51:51,349
there they seem to me to be not

4973
02:51:56,230 --> 02:51:53,200
different that's my point

4974
02:51:58,630 --> 02:51:56,240
they seem to logically one requires a

4975
02:51:59,349 --> 02:51:58,640
huge ontological jump from no mind to

4976
02:52:01,750 --> 02:51:59,359
mind

4977
02:52:02,710 --> 02:52:01,760
the other one only requires degrees the

4978
02:52:04,950 --> 02:52:02,720
thing is

4979
02:52:06,550 --> 02:52:04,960
you're very focused on this notion that

4980
02:52:08,469 --> 02:52:06,560
degree can lead to a

4981
02:52:09,670 --> 02:52:08,479
difference in kind which i think is a

4982
02:52:11,510 --> 02:52:09,680
fallacy

4983
02:52:13,510 --> 02:52:11,520
but but you're invoking it you're

4984
02:52:15,910 --> 02:52:13,520
invoking it because you're saying

4985
02:52:17,510 --> 02:52:15,920
that the cosmic mind is ultimately

4986
02:52:19,990 --> 02:52:17,520
different in kind

4987
02:52:22,150 --> 02:52:20,000
from my mind that's why my trip that's

4988
02:52:24,389 --> 02:52:22,160
why me calling it something like god

4989
02:52:25,510 --> 02:52:24,399
is fundamentally a mistake because it

4990
02:52:27,190 --> 02:52:25,520
doesn't have

4991
02:52:28,710 --> 02:52:27,200
some of the fundamental features of my

4992
02:52:31,190 --> 02:52:28,720
personhood which is what

4993
02:52:32,550 --> 02:52:31,200
the traditional definition of god is i'm

4994
02:52:34,469 --> 02:52:32,560
not saying it's different in kind

4995
02:52:36,790 --> 02:52:34,479
because i'm saying it's also mental

4996
02:52:39,590 --> 02:52:36,800
in the sense that its processes are of

4997
02:52:42,389 --> 02:52:39,600
an experiential or qualitative nature

4998
02:52:44,630 --> 02:52:42,399
but the complexity of those processes

4999
02:52:46,550 --> 02:52:44,640
the inner interactions the changes of

5000
02:52:47,830 --> 02:52:46,560
state the structure and dynamics of

5001
02:52:50,309 --> 02:52:47,840
those processes

5002
02:52:51,990 --> 02:52:50,319
can vary over large degrees and the

5003
02:52:54,830 --> 02:52:52,000
substrate is still the same

5004
02:52:56,070 --> 02:52:54,840
field of subjectivity the same field of

5005
02:52:58,230 --> 02:52:56,080
phenomenality

5006
02:52:59,429 --> 02:52:58,240
so there is no ontologically there is no

5007
02:53:02,790 --> 02:52:59,439
transition in kind

5008
02:53:04,790 --> 02:53:02,800
it's a transition of sophistication

5009
02:53:05,830 --> 02:53:04,800
the complexity of the processes that

5010
02:53:08,870 --> 02:53:05,840
unfold there if

5011
02:53:11,750 --> 02:53:08,880
you will um the the

5012
02:53:13,030 --> 02:53:11,760
the underlying mind at large you can

5013
02:53:16,309 --> 02:53:13,040
look at it as a lake

5014
02:53:19,349 --> 02:53:16,319
with simple straight ripples and

5015
02:53:20,870 --> 02:53:19,359
and in our minds with all kinds of you

5016
02:53:22,070 --> 02:53:20,880
know higher level mental functions

5017
02:53:24,710 --> 02:53:22,080
feedback mechanisms

5018
02:53:26,630 --> 02:53:24,720
intelligence rationality self-reflection

5019
02:53:27,750 --> 02:53:26,640
self-awareness re-representation and all

5020
02:53:30,050 --> 02:53:27,760
that stuff

5021
02:53:31,990 --> 02:53:30,060
as a very stormy

5022
02:53:34,150 --> 02:53:32,000
[Laughter]

5023
02:53:36,230 --> 02:53:34,160
water in a cup but very stormy water in

5024
02:53:37,030 --> 02:53:36,240
a cup with all kinds of patterns of

5025
02:53:39,590 --> 02:53:37,040
movement

5026
02:53:40,389 --> 02:53:39,600
that are much more complex waves that

5027
02:53:42,630 --> 02:53:40,399
fold in

5028
02:53:43,590 --> 02:53:42,640
upon themselves and form reflective

5029
02:53:47,110 --> 02:53:43,600
surfaces

5030
02:53:50,630 --> 02:53:47,120
uh all kinds of uh um access

5031
02:53:53,110 --> 02:53:50,640
uh patterns uh going on but it's water

5032
02:53:53,910 --> 02:53:53,120
but you're invoking new kinds all kinds

5033
02:53:56,469 --> 02:53:53,920
of patterns

5034
02:53:57,510 --> 02:53:56,479
all kinds of things patterns of

5035
02:54:00,389 --> 02:53:57,520
excitation

5036
02:54:03,429 --> 02:54:00,399
that are real yes but not a different

5037
02:54:05,750 --> 02:54:03,439
kind of the medium that is excited

5038
02:54:06,630 --> 02:54:05,760
so look you can have so so so there's

5039
02:54:08,950 --> 02:54:06,640
ultimately

5040
02:54:09,990 --> 02:54:08,960
physics which isn't just matter it's

5041
02:54:12,389 --> 02:54:10,000
time and space

5042
02:54:14,469 --> 02:54:12,399
and quantum crap and relativistic crap

5043
02:54:16,710 --> 02:54:14,479
and some of it gets very complex

5044
02:54:18,309 --> 02:54:16,720
and that's me and some of it doesn't get

5045
02:54:21,429 --> 02:54:18,319
very complex and that's a rock

5046
02:54:24,790 --> 02:54:23,030
and i take it that there's a difference

5047
02:54:26,389 --> 02:54:24,800
in kind between me and rocks and i think

5048
02:54:27,349 --> 02:54:26,399
you do too because you treat persons

5049
02:54:28,710 --> 02:54:27,359
with morality

5050
02:54:30,790 --> 02:54:28,720
in a way you don't treat rocks with

5051
02:54:32,150 --> 02:54:30,800
morality so there's a difference in kind

5052
02:54:34,630 --> 02:54:32,160
there that comes out in your in your

5053
02:54:35,750 --> 02:54:34,640
behavior in a very predictable manner

5054
02:54:37,510 --> 02:54:35,760
i think there's a difference in

5055
02:54:39,110 --> 02:54:37,520
complexity which leads to different

5056
02:54:40,950 --> 02:54:39,120
properties

5057
02:54:42,389 --> 02:54:40,960
and you can pass judgments based on the

5058
02:54:43,670 --> 02:54:42,399
properties that are available but i

5059
02:54:45,510 --> 02:54:43,680
don't think there is

5060
02:54:47,830 --> 02:54:45,520
a difference in kind as far as the

5061
02:54:50,550 --> 02:54:47,840
ontological substrate is concerned it's

5062
02:54:52,309 --> 02:54:50,560
still mental it's still subjectivity

5063
02:54:54,389 --> 02:54:52,319
you can have very simple ripples and

5064
02:54:56,630 --> 02:54:54,399
very complex ripples but it's still

5065
02:54:57,510 --> 02:54:56,640
just ripples in water it's still just

5066
02:55:00,550 --> 02:54:57,520
water

5067
02:55:02,070 --> 02:55:00,560
or you can have a silicon i want to

5068
02:55:03,910 --> 02:55:02,080
point out to you the irony that you're

5069
02:55:05,990 --> 02:55:03,920
using a physical analogy

5070
02:55:07,590 --> 02:55:06,000
uh to describe this thereby pointing to

5071
02:55:08,870 --> 02:55:07,600
the fact that physical things can

5072
02:55:10,070 --> 02:55:08,880
actually do the kind of stuff you're

5073
02:55:12,150 --> 02:55:10,080
pointing to

5074
02:55:14,710 --> 02:55:12,160
i'm not denying that which we call the

5075
02:55:16,469 --> 02:55:14,720
physical i'm denying the theoretical

5076
02:55:18,070 --> 02:55:16,479
inference that that which we call the

5077
02:55:19,030 --> 02:55:18,080
physical has a root in something

5078
02:55:21,110 --> 02:55:19,040
non-mental

5079
02:55:23,269 --> 02:55:21,120
but i'm not denying the experience of

5080
02:55:26,630 --> 02:55:23,279
the world that we call physical

5081
02:55:30,710 --> 02:55:27,830
john i feel like you're holding back

5082
02:55:32,550 --> 02:55:30,720
what are your true thoughts uh

5083
02:55:33,670 --> 02:55:32,560
no i'm not holding back in the sense

5084
02:55:34,790 --> 02:55:33,680
that there's stuff i want to say that

5085
02:55:39,190 --> 02:55:34,800
i'm not saying

5086
02:55:40,790 --> 02:55:39,200
i'm i i there's uh i i think there's uh

5087
02:55:42,550 --> 02:55:40,800
and i don't mean this pejoratively to

5088
02:55:44,150 --> 02:55:42,560
either bernardo or myself

5089
02:55:46,389 --> 02:55:44,160
i think there's an intuitive vision here

5090
02:55:51,030 --> 02:55:46,399
that we're not necessarily sharing

5091
02:55:54,550 --> 02:55:51,040
um um what do you mean by that

5092
02:55:58,150 --> 02:55:54,560
uh i think the the the the

5093
02:55:58,630 --> 02:55:58,160
intuitions about i mean it seems to me

5094
02:56:00,070 --> 02:55:58,640
like

5095
02:56:02,710 --> 02:56:00,080
bernardo is saying that you know the

5096
02:56:05,190 --> 02:56:02,720
world exists independently of my mind

5097
02:56:05,830 --> 02:56:05,200
um but it doesn't exist independently of

5098
02:56:08,710 --> 02:56:05,840
some mind

5099
02:56:09,590 --> 02:56:08,720
that i'm not directly aware of uh and

5100
02:56:13,190 --> 02:56:09,600
that's

5101
02:56:15,910 --> 02:56:13,200
that strikes me as uh problematic

5102
02:56:18,150 --> 02:56:15,920
because i would need evidence for that

5103
02:56:20,630 --> 02:56:18,160
mind independent of me

5104
02:56:21,990 --> 02:56:20,640
in order to make the argument run i got

5105
02:56:23,670 --> 02:56:22,000
it so

5106
02:56:25,110 --> 02:56:23,680
the analogy i like to use for this is

5107
02:56:28,790 --> 02:56:25,120
the following

5108
02:56:30,630 --> 02:56:28,800
unless we are solipsists unless we think

5109
02:56:31,030 --> 02:56:30,640
that the only mind going on is our own

5110
02:56:32,790 --> 02:56:31,040
meant

5111
02:56:34,710 --> 02:56:32,800
our own mind the ones we have direct

5112
02:56:36,870 --> 02:56:34,720
access to so

5113
02:56:38,309 --> 02:56:36,880
i i would consider that something

5114
02:56:40,469 --> 02:56:38,319
something that we don't need to debate

5115
02:56:41,910 --> 02:56:40,479
we can reject that i even wrote about an

5116
02:56:44,309 --> 02:56:41,920
argument to reject that but

5117
02:56:46,469 --> 02:56:44,319
i know you i know you reject it as

5118
02:56:47,990 --> 02:56:46,479
russell said even those who purport to

5119
02:56:49,830 --> 02:56:48,000
believe in solipsism

5120
02:56:51,429 --> 02:56:49,840
actually don't act as if they believe

5121
02:56:52,230 --> 02:56:51,439
it's a performative contradiction yes

5122
02:56:53,990 --> 02:56:52,240
totally

5123
02:56:56,150 --> 02:56:54,000
okay so unless you wear that you have to

5124
02:56:58,630 --> 02:56:56,160
infer something outside of that which

5125
02:57:00,469 --> 02:56:58,640
you have direct access to

5126
02:57:03,269 --> 02:57:00,479
you have to make an inference beyond

5127
02:57:05,590 --> 02:57:03,279
your own mind unless you're a solipsist

5128
02:57:07,510 --> 02:57:05,600
so the difference is what is that

5129
02:57:11,429 --> 02:57:07,520
inference how complex how

5130
02:57:13,030 --> 02:57:11,439
how parsimonious and how explanatory

5131
02:57:15,110 --> 02:57:13,040
powerful is that inference

5132
02:57:17,510 --> 02:57:15,120
but everybody has to make that inference

5133
02:57:20,469 --> 02:57:17,520
so the analogy i use is the following

5134
02:57:21,590 --> 02:57:20,479
my mind is the earth i can see until the

5135
02:57:25,190 --> 02:57:21,600
horizon

5136
02:57:27,429 --> 02:57:25,200
but i

5137
02:57:28,309 --> 02:57:27,439
need to infer that the earth that there

5138
02:57:30,070 --> 02:57:28,319
is something be

5139
02:57:31,750 --> 02:57:30,080
beyond the horizon to make sense of

5140
02:57:32,230 --> 02:57:31,760
empirical experience otherwise i do not

5141
02:57:34,469 --> 02:57:32,240
have

5142
02:57:35,990 --> 02:57:34,479
a satisfactory explanatory model for how

5143
02:57:38,469 --> 02:57:36,000
you and me seem to be sharing the same

5144
02:57:39,750 --> 02:57:38,479
world and all that uh granting that you

5145
02:57:41,590 --> 02:57:39,760
also

5146
02:57:42,870 --> 02:57:41,600
are conscious i reject solipsism too i

5147
02:57:46,389 --> 02:57:42,880
rejected all those scissors too

5148
02:57:48,550 --> 02:57:46,399
so i my my influence is the following

5149
02:57:49,510 --> 02:57:48,560
up to the horizon it's my mind it's

5150
02:57:52,070 --> 02:57:49,520
mental

5151
02:57:54,150 --> 02:57:52,080
beyond the horizon it's just more mind

5152
02:57:55,990 --> 02:57:54,160
it's just that i cannot see it

5153
02:57:58,230 --> 02:57:56,000
the physicalist will say up to the

5154
02:58:00,389 --> 02:57:58,240
horizon it's my mind it's mental

5155
02:58:02,150 --> 02:58:00,399
beyond the horizon it's a totally

5156
02:58:04,550 --> 02:58:02,160
different kind of stuff

5157
02:58:05,910 --> 02:58:04,560
that is exhaustively definable in terms

5158
02:58:07,830 --> 02:58:05,920
of pure quantities

5159
02:58:09,510 --> 02:58:07,840
and out of which we do not have a way

5160
02:58:12,790 --> 02:58:09,520
even in principle to derive

5161
02:58:15,269 --> 02:58:12,800
qualities take your picture okay

5162
02:58:16,309 --> 02:58:15,279
oh well i i mean that's a little bit of

5163
02:58:17,910 --> 02:58:16,319
a prejudicial

5164
02:58:19,910 --> 02:58:17,920
description because it sounds like

5165
02:58:22,550 --> 02:58:19,920
there's no problems in your

5166
02:58:23,030 --> 02:58:22,560
in your position also but let's let's

5167
02:58:26,790 --> 02:58:23,040
let's

5168
02:58:28,870 --> 02:58:26,800
there isn't solipsism so we agree

5169
02:58:30,230 --> 02:58:28,880
that there's things that exist outside

5170
02:58:31,750 --> 02:58:30,240
of my consciousness

5171
02:58:33,510 --> 02:58:31,760
and that taking care of the problem that

5172
02:58:35,429 --> 02:58:33,520
i didn't exist at one point and i won't

5173
02:58:41,910 --> 02:58:35,439
exist at another point

5174
02:58:46,309 --> 02:58:44,070
i should there and the reason why people

5175
02:58:48,309 --> 02:58:46,319
believe in the external world

5176
02:58:51,349 --> 02:58:48,319
typically is they think of things going

5177
02:58:53,670 --> 02:58:51,359
on outside of any human consciousness

5178
02:58:55,670 --> 02:58:53,680
um you know that they're before you know

5179
02:58:57,429 --> 02:58:55,680
before they were sentient beings

5180
02:58:58,790 --> 02:58:57,439
the earth was forming the sun was

5181
02:59:00,070 --> 02:58:58,800
forming you know you know

5182
02:59:02,389 --> 02:59:00,080
things like that evolution was

5183
02:59:05,750 --> 02:59:02,399
eventually going on uh you know

5184
02:59:07,990 --> 02:59:05,760
et cetera et cetera and

5185
02:59:09,030 --> 02:59:08,000
what they the physical still doesn't say

5186
02:59:11,590 --> 02:59:09,040
is well when i

5187
02:59:13,510 --> 02:59:11,600
look at reality when i first come upon

5188
02:59:15,429 --> 02:59:13,520
it where there has not been any human

5189
02:59:17,670 --> 02:59:15,439
beings i don't see any evidence

5190
02:59:18,469 --> 02:59:17,680
uh for intelligence and i don't see any

5191
02:59:20,309 --> 02:59:18,479
evidence

5192
02:59:21,590 --> 02:59:20,319
for directed behavior i don't see any

5193
02:59:23,750 --> 02:59:21,600
evidence for what

5194
02:59:25,030 --> 02:59:23,760
i i typically need in order to attribute

5195
02:59:26,309 --> 02:59:25,040
mind to something

5196
02:59:28,389 --> 02:59:26,319
so i don't attribute mine to my

5197
02:59:28,790 --> 02:59:28,399
refrigerator normally because it doesn't

5198
02:59:30,230 --> 02:59:28,800
have

5199
02:59:32,389 --> 02:59:30,240
blah blah blah blah it doesn't do all

5200
02:59:33,110 --> 02:59:32,399
these things and that's why

5201
02:59:35,110 --> 02:59:33,120
you know and that's how i make

5202
02:59:36,550 --> 02:59:35,120
distinctions between my mind and the

5203
02:59:39,269 --> 02:59:36,560
dog's mind etc

5204
02:59:40,790 --> 02:59:39,279
in terms of the behavioral consequences

5205
02:59:43,269 --> 02:59:40,800
and the physicalist says

5206
02:59:45,269 --> 02:59:43,279
well it looks like most of the universe

5207
02:59:47,670 --> 02:59:45,279
is behaving as if there is no mind

5208
02:59:49,510 --> 02:59:47,680
and what i would need for the cosmic

5209
02:59:50,309 --> 02:59:49,520
mind is evidence outside of human

5210
02:59:52,389 --> 02:59:50,319
consciousness

5211
02:59:54,469 --> 02:59:52,399
of things that are mental like in

5212
02:59:55,990 --> 02:59:54,479
behavior and that's exactly not what the

5213
02:59:58,309 --> 02:59:56,000
universe seems to operate like

5214
02:59:59,590 --> 02:59:58,319
it seems to operate non-teleologically

5215
03:00:01,429 --> 02:59:59,600
not intelligently

5216
03:00:03,670 --> 03:00:01,439
it seems to happen like really

5217
03:00:05,190 --> 03:00:03,680
haphazardly it doesn't have to seem to

5218
03:00:07,510 --> 03:00:05,200
have even the basis

5219
03:00:09,190 --> 03:00:07,520
of moral concerns or emotional

5220
03:00:14,070 --> 03:00:09,200
attachment to anything

5221
03:00:17,429 --> 03:00:15,670
i don't think you're right when you say

5222
03:00:20,070 --> 03:00:17,439
there is no evidence for that

5223
03:00:22,309 --> 03:00:20,080
but suppose you were right that there is

5224
03:00:23,190 --> 03:00:22,319
no evidence for us to attribute mind to

5225
03:00:26,469 --> 03:00:23,200
the world

5226
03:00:29,910 --> 03:00:26,479
i would still say that is by far

5227
03:00:31,750 --> 03:00:29,920
still the least problematic option given

5228
03:00:32,230 --> 03:00:31,760
what options are on the table how do you

5229
03:00:34,790 --> 03:00:32,240
produce

5230
03:00:35,670 --> 03:00:34,800
qualities out of purely quantitative

5231
03:00:38,950 --> 03:00:35,680
properties

5232
03:00:39,510 --> 03:00:38,960
or how do you merge uh fundamentally

5233
03:00:44,309 --> 03:00:39,520
different

5234
03:00:46,150 --> 03:00:44,319
this is coming down to intellectual

5235
03:00:48,469 --> 03:00:46,160
taste i mean

5236
03:00:49,750 --> 03:00:48,479
really i mean because what you're asking

5237
03:00:52,070 --> 03:00:49,760
me to say that we

5238
03:00:54,870 --> 03:00:52,080
that you know we have some our

5239
03:00:55,910 --> 03:00:54,880
experience has some special role

5240
03:00:57,990 --> 03:00:55,920
like you know this is one of the

5241
03:00:59,990 --> 03:00:58,000
criticisms made by speculative realists

5242
03:01:02,469 --> 03:01:00,000
you know correlationalism that we're

5243
03:01:05,590 --> 03:01:02,479
we're binding all of ontology

5244
03:01:08,230 --> 03:01:05,600
uh uh uh to our particular uh

5245
03:01:08,870 --> 03:01:08,240
ontology and that that seems like a a

5246
03:01:13,349 --> 03:01:08,880
really

5247
03:01:14,389 --> 03:01:13,359
able to talk about things having

5248
03:01:16,150 --> 03:01:14,399
relations

5249
03:01:17,429 --> 03:01:16,160
among themselves without me being around

5250
03:01:19,110 --> 03:01:17,439
i agree with that

5251
03:01:20,469 --> 03:01:19,120
right i will answer that i will answer

5252
03:01:22,150 --> 03:01:20,479
that let me just

5253
03:01:24,870 --> 03:01:22,160
very briefly insist on the point i made

5254
03:01:27,670 --> 03:01:24,880
before in the technical literature

5255
03:01:28,870 --> 03:01:27,680
there are papers papers arguing that the

5256
03:01:31,910 --> 03:01:28,880
problems faced by

5257
03:01:33,030 --> 03:01:31,920
physicalism and psychism leads to

5258
03:01:34,950 --> 03:01:33,040
incoherence

5259
03:01:36,070 --> 03:01:34,960
and these are technical arguments made

5260
03:01:37,670 --> 03:01:36,080
by different people

5261
03:01:39,429 --> 03:01:37,680
i i've read though i've read i've read a

5262
03:01:40,710 --> 03:01:39,439
lot of these arguments too right okay

5263
03:01:43,030 --> 03:01:40,720
and there are also people that counter

5264
03:01:44,150 --> 03:01:43,040
those arguments i mean

5265
03:01:45,830 --> 03:01:44,160
it's not it's not fair for you to

5266
03:01:46,550 --> 03:01:45,840
present it as a resolve debate or

5267
03:01:48,469 --> 03:01:46,560
consensus

5268
03:01:50,790 --> 03:01:48,479
i don't think that's that's fair there

5269
03:01:53,190 --> 03:01:50,800
has been no

5270
03:01:56,389 --> 03:01:53,200
technical argument saying that analytic

5271
03:01:58,150 --> 03:01:56,399
idealism is incoherent in principle

5272
03:01:59,750 --> 03:01:58,160
these arguments have been made for the

5273
03:02:02,389 --> 03:01:59,760
other two options

5274
03:02:03,110 --> 03:02:02,399
but there is no in principle incoherence

5275
03:02:05,429 --> 03:02:03,120
argument

5276
03:02:07,590 --> 03:02:05,439
for instance for uh constitutive

5277
03:02:09,510 --> 03:02:07,600
pennsylvanism the incoherent

5278
03:02:10,710 --> 03:02:09,520
incoherence argument takes this the

5279
03:02:12,870 --> 03:02:10,720
following form

5280
03:02:14,630 --> 03:02:12,880
if fundamentally separate fields of

5281
03:02:17,190 --> 03:02:14,640
subjectivity

5282
03:02:18,230 --> 03:02:17,200
experiencing different qualities were to

5283
03:02:20,070 --> 03:02:18,240
merge

5284
03:02:22,150 --> 03:02:20,080
he would lose the original fields of

5285
03:02:23,990 --> 03:02:22,160
experience like if if the compound

5286
03:02:27,269 --> 03:02:24,000
subject is seeing purple

5287
03:02:28,389 --> 03:02:27,279
and the sub-subjects were seeing red and

5288
03:02:31,269 --> 03:02:28,399
blue

5289
03:02:32,950 --> 03:02:31,279
then they would subsume themselves into

5290
03:02:34,790 --> 03:02:32,960
the higher level subject which

5291
03:02:35,510 --> 03:02:34,800
contradicts what the penn psychism is

5292
03:02:38,070 --> 03:02:35,520
trying to do

5293
03:02:39,510 --> 03:02:38,080
which is to follow the rules of uh

5294
03:02:40,469 --> 03:02:39,520
chemical combinations in philip

5295
03:02:43,349 --> 03:02:40,479
physicalism

5296
03:02:44,230 --> 03:02:43,359
uh the the molecules that compose

5297
03:02:47,510 --> 03:02:44,240
tissues

5298
03:02:48,309 --> 03:02:47,520
don't disappear so you have an argument

5299
03:02:50,550 --> 03:02:48,319
like that

5300
03:02:52,790 --> 03:02:50,560
there isn't a technical argument

5301
03:02:53,510 --> 03:02:52,800
claiming incoherence for analytical

5302
03:02:56,550 --> 03:02:53,520
idealism

5303
03:03:00,389 --> 03:02:56,560
there may be i find it very hard but

5304
03:03:02,950 --> 03:03:00,399
there may be but still let me grant you

5305
03:03:04,630 --> 03:03:02,960
that um that i cannot use this line of

5306
03:03:05,830 --> 03:03:04,640
arguments and let's look at what you

5307
03:03:08,630 --> 03:03:05,840
said you said

5308
03:03:09,870 --> 03:03:08,640
um for something to be minded you you

5309
03:03:12,710 --> 03:03:09,880
need to care about

5310
03:03:14,150 --> 03:03:12,720
relationships you need to be emotionally

5311
03:03:16,790 --> 03:03:14,160
bound to something

5312
03:03:18,710 --> 03:03:16,800
solving problems even yeah it does a

5313
03:03:20,469 --> 03:03:18,720
mosquito have those properties

5314
03:03:21,990 --> 03:03:20,479
there's a crocodile have all these

5315
03:03:26,150 --> 03:03:22,000
properties you're alluding to

5316
03:03:29,670 --> 03:03:26,160
can you envision that water flea

5317
03:03:32,070 --> 03:03:29,680
is a purely instinctive reactive

5318
03:03:32,870 --> 03:03:32,080
conscious being that does not have any

5319
03:03:36,870 --> 03:03:32,880
of these

5320
03:03:44,469 --> 03:03:40,070
a paramecium i think paramecium

5321
03:03:47,830 --> 03:03:44,479
has um the

5322
03:03:50,950 --> 03:03:47,840
sort of basic abilities of making sense

5323
03:03:53,030 --> 03:03:50,960
aspectualizing its environment so it's

5324
03:03:54,710 --> 03:03:53,040
it relates to some things as food and

5325
03:03:56,630 --> 03:03:54,720
some things as poison

5326
03:03:58,230 --> 03:03:56,640
and i think that as spectralization is

5327
03:03:59,030 --> 03:03:58,240
continuous with how you're aspect

5328
03:04:01,670 --> 03:03:59,040
realizing

5329
03:04:03,349 --> 03:04:01,680
right now you're seeing me as a man

5330
03:04:05,590 --> 03:04:03,359
you're seeing me as

5331
03:04:07,190 --> 03:04:05,600
etc etc so there's deep continuity

5332
03:04:08,070 --> 03:04:07,200
between their capacity for aspect

5333
03:04:09,990 --> 03:04:08,080
realization

5334
03:04:11,830 --> 03:04:10,000
and mine but that doesn't mean that they

5335
03:04:15,030 --> 03:04:11,840
could aspectualize

5336
03:04:16,230 --> 03:04:15,040
right everything that i can because

5337
03:04:17,910 --> 03:04:16,240
i don't have to attribute the same

5338
03:04:19,349 --> 03:04:17,920
intelligence to them as i attribute to

5339
03:04:21,750 --> 03:04:19,359
me that's exactly my point

5340
03:04:23,429 --> 03:04:21,760
but can you attribute a lot simpler

5341
03:04:23,990 --> 03:04:23,439
conscious in your life to them than you

5342
03:04:30,389 --> 03:04:24,000
have

5343
03:04:32,070 --> 03:04:30,399
it wouldn't fall in love i think the

5344
03:04:35,349 --> 03:04:32,080
paramecium

5345
03:04:36,389 --> 03:04:35,359
in some sense has to care about some

5346
03:04:38,070 --> 03:04:36,399
information

5347
03:04:42,150 --> 03:04:38,080
rather than the other it wouldn't be my

5348
03:04:44,469 --> 03:04:42,160
full-blown subjective experience of love

5349
03:04:45,349 --> 03:04:44,479
but um i you know there's many

5350
03:04:47,750 --> 03:04:45,359
subjective

5351
03:04:49,750 --> 03:04:47,760
emotions i have like pride that i don't

5352
03:04:51,030 --> 03:04:49,760
think a dog has but i think a dog is

5353
03:04:53,670 --> 03:04:51,040
nevertheless conscious

5354
03:04:55,429 --> 03:04:53,680
so i i think a paramecium i mean that's

5355
03:04:57,349 --> 03:04:55,439
one of the big differences

5356
03:04:59,670 --> 03:04:57,359
between us and between standard existing

5357
03:05:01,349 --> 03:04:59,680
computers is we have to care about the

5358
03:05:03,830 --> 03:05:01,359
information we're processing

5359
03:05:05,269 --> 03:05:03,840
um and we which means we devote

5360
03:05:07,190 --> 03:05:05,279
attention and arousal

5361
03:05:08,389 --> 03:05:07,200
we dispose metabolic energy towards it i

5362
03:05:10,870 --> 03:05:08,399
think the paramecium

5363
03:05:12,950 --> 03:05:10,880
is doing all of these things okay so i

5364
03:05:14,950 --> 03:05:12,960
i'm with you that there is a continuum

5365
03:05:16,710 --> 03:05:14,960
i'm just trying to establish that in

5366
03:05:19,670 --> 03:05:16,720
that continuum there is a point of

5367
03:05:20,710 --> 03:05:19,680
much lower much higher simplicity than

5368
03:05:21,670 --> 03:05:20,720
than where we are

5369
03:05:23,910 --> 03:05:21,680
that's the only thing i want to

5370
03:05:24,950 --> 03:05:23,920
establish that that can be conscious in

5371
03:05:27,750 --> 03:05:24,960
their life

5372
03:05:28,630 --> 03:05:27,760
with a lot more simplicity than the one

5373
03:05:30,550 --> 03:05:28,640
we experience

5374
03:05:32,150 --> 03:05:30,560
as human beings and we are both in a

5375
03:05:34,950 --> 03:05:32,160
continuum okay

5376
03:05:35,349 --> 03:05:34,960
now the paramecium has what philosophers

5377
03:05:36,710 --> 03:05:35,359
call

5378
03:05:39,030 --> 03:05:36,720
intentionality because there is

5379
03:05:40,469 --> 03:05:39,040
something outside the paramecium that

5380
03:05:42,469 --> 03:05:40,479
isn't the paramecium

5381
03:05:44,950 --> 03:05:42,479
now for the cosmic mind there is nothing

5382
03:05:46,630 --> 03:05:44,960
outside of it by definition so it cannot

5383
03:05:49,269 --> 03:05:46,640
have intentionality

5384
03:05:50,389 --> 03:05:49,279
so all its conscious states have to be

5385
03:05:52,150 --> 03:05:50,399
endogenous

5386
03:05:53,830 --> 03:05:52,160
and there can there can't be this

5387
03:05:54,710 --> 03:05:53,840
actualization that you're talking about

5388
03:05:57,030 --> 03:05:54,720
because there isn't

5389
03:05:58,070 --> 03:05:57,040
an outside environment so my what i

5390
03:06:00,630 --> 03:05:58,080
propose is

5391
03:06:02,469 --> 03:06:00,640
it's very in terms of emotions and

5392
03:06:02,870 --> 03:06:02,479
qualities it's much simpler in their

5393
03:06:04,710 --> 03:06:02,880
life

5394
03:06:06,630 --> 03:06:04,720
and it does not have intentionality it's

5395
03:06:07,670 --> 03:06:06,640
a it's purely endogenous it's of a

5396
03:06:10,150 --> 03:06:07,680
different kind

5397
03:06:10,950 --> 03:06:10,160
now is there evidence that that might be

5398
03:06:12,630 --> 03:06:10,960
going on

5399
03:06:14,469 --> 03:06:12,640
even if there weren't i would say i

5400
03:06:16,150 --> 03:06:14,479
still have the best theory on the table

5401
03:06:19,190 --> 03:06:16,160
because the problems of the others are

5402
03:06:20,389 --> 03:06:19,200
insurmountable but recent research is

5403
03:06:22,630 --> 03:06:20,399
showing two things and this

5404
03:06:24,710 --> 03:06:22,640
is fresh out of the oven one of them not

5405
03:06:27,429 --> 03:06:24,720
the first i would talk about

5406
03:06:30,070 --> 03:06:27,439
there is a lot of study now showing that

5407
03:06:31,750 --> 03:06:30,080
in terms of network topology and i'm not

5408
03:06:33,190 --> 03:06:31,760
talking about pretty images pretty

5409
03:06:35,190 --> 03:06:33,200
photographs i'm talking about

5410
03:06:36,630 --> 03:06:35,200
network topology which is quantified and

5411
03:06:39,429 --> 03:06:36,640
mathematized

5412
03:06:41,030 --> 03:06:39,439
there are surprising similarities

5413
03:06:43,510 --> 03:06:41,040
between the network topology

5414
03:06:45,990 --> 03:06:43,520
of the universe at its largest scales

5415
03:06:51,269 --> 03:06:46,000
you know galaxy clusters and all that

5416
03:06:54,870 --> 03:06:53,030
that argument's been in existence for

5417
03:06:56,070 --> 03:06:54,880
quite a while design in nature i forget

5418
03:06:58,469 --> 03:06:56,080
the author of the book

5419
03:07:00,550 --> 03:06:58,479
he points out those that uh formal

5420
03:07:03,030 --> 03:07:00,560
similarity but it's also similarity with

5421
03:07:04,309 --> 03:07:03,040
you know how the how things branch in

5422
03:07:07,590 --> 03:07:04,319
your in your lungs

5423
03:07:08,550 --> 03:07:07,600
how river deltas branch out things like

5424
03:07:11,590 --> 03:07:08,560
that

5425
03:07:13,670 --> 03:07:11,600
recent research uh the the most recent

5426
03:07:15,429 --> 03:07:13,680
one is done by an italian neuroscientist

5427
03:07:17,990 --> 03:07:15,439
and an italian physician

5428
03:07:19,830 --> 03:07:18,000
um sorry you're a physicist you have the

5429
03:07:21,510 --> 03:07:19,840
advantage on me then i guess

5430
03:07:23,429 --> 03:07:21,520
go ahead well bernardo is that not a

5431
03:07:25,110 --> 03:07:23,439
moot point because if we had more

5432
03:07:26,790 --> 03:07:25,120
cosmic data and we find out that the

5433
03:07:27,269 --> 03:07:26,800
universe looks completely different from

5434
03:07:28,710 --> 03:07:27,279
another

5435
03:07:30,469 --> 03:07:28,720
point of view you still wouldn't say

5436
03:07:32,309 --> 03:07:30,479
that your theory is invalidated so in

5437
03:07:34,790 --> 03:07:32,319
some sense it's neither

5438
03:07:35,990 --> 03:07:34,800
a pro nor con this is more than just

5439
03:07:37,190 --> 03:07:36,000
what it looks like that's what i'm

5440
03:07:39,110 --> 03:07:37,200
trying to highlight

5441
03:07:41,110 --> 03:07:39,120
quantitative studies have been done at

5442
03:07:43,750 --> 03:07:41,120
the university of california at irvine

5443
03:07:44,309 --> 03:07:43,760
i think in 2014 and there is this more

5444
03:07:46,870 --> 03:07:44,319
uh

5445
03:07:47,830 --> 03:07:46,880
recent research done by this franco

5446
03:07:51,429 --> 03:07:47,840
varza

5447
03:07:54,230 --> 03:07:51,439
and alberto feletti these two guys

5448
03:07:55,830 --> 03:07:54,240
oh i'm amazed i could retrieve that

5449
03:07:58,150 --> 03:07:55,840
normally i'm not that good mind at large

5450
03:08:00,950 --> 03:07:58,160
has been kind to you

5451
03:08:03,510 --> 03:08:00,960
this is a quantitative network structure

5452
03:08:06,389 --> 03:08:03,520
and network topology analysis

5453
03:08:07,190 --> 03:08:06,399
and it shows the similarity is really

5454
03:08:09,349 --> 03:08:07,200
between

5455
03:08:11,030 --> 03:08:09,359
neural networks and the universe and it

5456
03:08:13,429 --> 03:08:11,040
doesn't involve

5457
03:08:15,590 --> 03:08:13,439
the fractal patterns of arteries in our

5458
03:08:16,630 --> 03:08:15,600
lungs or the fractal patterns of river

5459
03:08:18,630 --> 03:08:16,640
deltas it goes

5460
03:08:20,230 --> 03:08:18,640
it's much more specific than that now

5461
03:08:22,550 --> 03:08:20,240
there is a paper fresh

5462
03:08:25,670 --> 03:08:22,560
out of the oven published by a physicist

5463
03:08:29,990 --> 03:08:28,070
forgot forgot to forgot his uh his other

5464
03:08:32,070 --> 03:08:30,000
name fresh

5465
03:08:34,070 --> 03:08:32,080
are these papers proposing that there's

5466
03:08:34,710 --> 03:08:34,080
information processing going on in this

5467
03:08:35,910 --> 03:08:34,720
structure

5468
03:08:38,230 --> 03:08:35,920
i mean that's going to violate all kinds

5469
03:08:41,190 --> 03:08:38,240
of relativistic limitations

5470
03:08:42,710 --> 03:08:41,200
et cetera no no okay so before i talk

5471
03:08:44,870 --> 03:08:42,720
about stefan's paper first

5472
03:08:46,710 --> 03:08:44,880
this because it's a good point of course

5473
03:08:48,150 --> 03:08:46,720
there is information processing what you

5474
03:08:49,990 --> 03:08:48,160
don't have is closed

5475
03:08:52,150 --> 03:08:50,000
loops of information because the age of

5476
03:08:55,590 --> 03:08:52,160
the universe is not

5477
03:08:58,469 --> 03:08:55,600
not long enough for information to to

5478
03:08:59,670 --> 03:08:58,479
go across galaxy galaxy clusters and and

5479
03:09:01,830 --> 03:08:59,680
close a loop

5480
03:09:03,349 --> 03:09:01,840
uh there hasn't been enough time for

5481
03:09:07,190 --> 03:09:03,359
that to happen

5482
03:09:10,150 --> 03:09:07,200
so what you cannot have is tononi's

5483
03:09:11,990 --> 03:09:10,160
information integration phi topologies

5484
03:09:13,750 --> 03:09:12,000
there hasn't been time for that

5485
03:09:16,469 --> 03:09:13,760
which only means that the universe is

5486
03:09:18,070 --> 03:09:16,479
then not self-reflective but it can

5487
03:09:19,910 --> 03:09:18,080
still be phenomenally

5488
03:09:21,429 --> 03:09:19,920
conscious or it can be phenomenal

5489
03:09:24,229 --> 03:09:21,439
conscious consciousness

5490
03:09:26,070 --> 03:09:24,239
because the the letter does not require

5491
03:09:26,790 --> 03:09:26,080
this closed loops of information

5492
03:09:28,630 --> 03:09:26,800
integration

5493
03:09:30,150 --> 03:09:28,640
for which you're right there has not

5494
03:09:32,550 --> 03:09:30,160
been time but information

5495
03:09:33,910 --> 03:09:32,560
processing in a feed forward manner of

5496
03:09:34,150 --> 03:09:33,920
course that's happening all the time and

5497
03:09:35,590 --> 03:09:34,160
it's

5498
03:09:37,750 --> 03:09:35,600
the universe is an information

5499
03:09:39,349 --> 03:09:37,760
processing engine actually there is a

5500
03:09:39,990 --> 03:09:39,359
whole field of physics called digital

5501
03:09:42,710 --> 03:09:40,000
physics

5502
03:09:43,510 --> 03:09:42,720
which is based entirely on on on this

5503
03:09:46,710 --> 03:09:43,520
postulate

5504
03:09:48,550 --> 03:09:46,720
but the the paper of stefon and it's

5505
03:09:50,550 --> 03:09:48,560
amazing um

5506
03:09:52,389 --> 03:09:50,560
it's beginning of research there's a

5507
03:09:53,990 --> 03:09:52,399
long way to go but what he's showing is

5508
03:09:57,349 --> 03:09:54,000
that the laws of physics may

5509
03:10:00,710 --> 03:09:57,359
correspond in terms of model models

5510
03:10:02,150 --> 03:10:00,720
may correspond to the weights of neurons

5511
03:10:04,950 --> 03:10:02,160
in the neural network

5512
03:10:06,070 --> 03:10:04,960
that the universe may be learning its

5513
03:10:08,150 --> 03:10:06,080
laws of physics

5514
03:10:10,389 --> 03:10:08,160
so i john if you say this is all

5515
03:10:12,229 --> 03:10:10,399
circumstantial i will be the first to

5516
03:10:15,030 --> 03:10:12,239
jump and agree with you but

5517
03:10:16,150 --> 03:10:15,040
you put me on the spot of of producing

5518
03:10:20,309 --> 03:10:16,160
this kind of

5519
03:10:23,670 --> 03:10:20,319
any evidence and then you say well

5520
03:10:24,950 --> 03:10:23,680
yeah there is there actually is and it's

5521
03:10:27,110 --> 03:10:24,960
evidence that we are

5522
03:10:29,030 --> 03:10:27,120
so confused about that we cannot make

5523
03:10:32,389 --> 03:10:29,040
sense of it we do not know

5524
03:10:35,990 --> 03:10:32,399
why uh galaxy clusters look more

5525
03:10:37,670 --> 03:10:36,000
like a a neuron then they look like the

5526
03:10:39,990 --> 03:10:37,680
interior of a galaxy

5527
03:10:41,190 --> 03:10:40,000
why should that be the case there is

5528
03:10:43,190 --> 03:10:41,200
nothing now under

5529
03:10:45,269 --> 03:10:43,200
in our understanding of nature that

5530
03:10:46,309 --> 03:10:45,279
would suggest why this relationship is

5531
03:10:48,150 --> 03:10:46,319
there at all

5532
03:10:50,469 --> 03:10:48,160
that it is there and that its

5533
03:10:53,910 --> 03:10:50,479
information processing can actually be

5534
03:10:55,190 --> 03:10:53,920
modeled as the weights of a artificial

5535
03:10:55,830 --> 03:10:55,200
neural network in the process of

5536
03:10:58,070 --> 03:10:55,840
learning

5537
03:10:59,590 --> 03:10:58,080
but only a feedback yeah but only a

5538
03:11:01,349 --> 03:10:59,600
feedforward artificial network

5539
03:11:03,110 --> 03:11:01,359
which is exactly the point you just made

5540
03:11:04,070 --> 03:11:03,120
which means it can't have a lot of the

5541
03:11:06,309 --> 03:11:04,080
properties

5542
03:11:08,710 --> 03:11:06,319
that we find in any new networks that do

5543
03:11:10,469 --> 03:11:08,720
feedback loops on themselves

5544
03:11:12,309 --> 03:11:10,479
it isn't even capable of doing hidden

5545
03:11:15,429 --> 03:11:12,319
deep learning or anything like that

5546
03:11:17,190 --> 03:11:15,439
because you have right and so i mean so

5547
03:11:18,469 --> 03:11:17,200
this is going to be a pretty

5548
03:11:20,389 --> 03:11:18,479
sorry i don't mean to be insulting to

5549
03:11:21,030 --> 03:11:20,399
your view i'm not okay that's a pretty

5550
03:11:23,269 --> 03:11:21,040
stupid

5551
03:11:24,389 --> 03:11:23,279
uh consciousness um and it has no

5552
03:11:25,830 --> 03:11:24,399
intentionality

5553
03:11:27,830 --> 03:11:25,840
i mean and so you're talking about a

5554
03:11:28,229 --> 03:11:27,840
mind without in without intent what you

5555
03:11:31,349 --> 03:11:28,239
said

5556
03:11:34,389 --> 03:11:31,359
without intentionality and without even

5557
03:11:35,269 --> 03:11:34,399
rudimentary intelligence i mean well

5558
03:11:37,349 --> 03:11:35,279
again

5559
03:11:38,550 --> 03:11:37,359
be careful be careful there are methods

5560
03:11:41,349 --> 03:11:38,560
of neural network

5561
03:11:42,150 --> 03:11:41,359
uh learning which are only feed forward

5562
03:11:44,790 --> 03:11:42,160
particularly

5563
03:11:46,790 --> 03:11:44,800
unsupervised learning techniques that do

5564
03:11:48,550 --> 03:11:46,800
not require this deep feedback

5565
03:11:50,070 --> 03:11:48,560
mechanism so you can still have some

5566
03:11:52,229 --> 03:11:50,080
intelligence but remember

5567
03:11:54,150 --> 03:11:52,239
i started today by saying i am a

5568
03:11:56,229 --> 03:11:54,160
naturalist i'm just being consistent

5569
03:11:58,710 --> 03:11:56,239
with it

5570
03:12:00,229 --> 03:11:58,720
um well yeah and i want to i won't get

5571
03:12:00,790 --> 03:12:00,239
into the technicalities because then you

5572
03:12:03,830 --> 03:12:00,800
have

5573
03:12:04,389 --> 03:12:03,840
self-correction problems and debugging

5574
03:12:07,110 --> 03:12:04,399
problems

5575
03:12:07,750 --> 03:12:07,120
which is why you know we plausibly have

5576
03:12:11,750 --> 03:12:07,760
meta

5577
03:12:13,030 --> 03:12:11,760
right we can use our intelligence to

5578
03:12:15,269 --> 03:12:13,040
improve our intelligence

5579
03:12:16,630 --> 03:12:15,279
uh we learn literacy for example that

5580
03:12:19,190 --> 03:12:16,640
improves our capacity for problem

5581
03:12:21,590 --> 03:12:19,200
solving um

5582
03:12:22,710 --> 03:12:21,600
like yeah i mean i i guess what comes

5583
03:12:24,630 --> 03:12:22,720
down to it is

5584
03:12:25,750 --> 03:12:24,640
uh i'm not quite sure what the

5585
03:12:28,389 --> 03:12:25,760
difference is now

5586
03:12:29,349 --> 03:12:28,399
because i got something out there uh

5587
03:12:32,150 --> 03:12:29,359
that's

5588
03:12:33,030 --> 03:12:32,160
no intentionality which is unlike what i

5589
03:12:35,910 --> 03:12:33,040
experienced

5590
03:12:38,469 --> 03:12:35,920
i mean let me be fair to you i do

5591
03:12:41,590 --> 03:12:38,479
experience states in deep meditation

5592
03:12:43,830 --> 03:12:41,600
that uh that are states without

5593
03:12:45,990 --> 03:12:43,840
intentionality and for which you could

5594
03:12:48,710 --> 03:12:46,000
possibly say i'm not exercising

5595
03:12:50,070 --> 03:12:48,720
any significant degree of intelligence

5596
03:12:50,790 --> 03:12:50,080
and those are the pure consciousness

5597
03:12:53,030 --> 03:12:50,800
events

5598
03:12:54,950 --> 03:12:53,040
and they're reliable i've i've achieved

5599
03:12:57,030 --> 03:12:54,960
that that sounds like an achievement so

5600
03:12:59,030 --> 03:12:57,040
i've been in those states multiple times

5601
03:13:00,309 --> 03:12:59,040
i know there's lots of research foreman

5602
03:13:03,670 --> 03:13:00,319
has done it

5603
03:13:06,710 --> 03:13:03,680
and there's lots of things on that um

5604
03:13:08,630 --> 03:13:06,720
is that the kind of thing what people

5605
03:13:10,070 --> 03:13:08,640
i mean i know it's not exactly the same

5606
03:13:11,910 --> 03:13:10,080
but i'm trying to get something from

5607
03:13:14,150 --> 03:13:11,920
within what i normally point to with

5608
03:13:17,349 --> 03:13:14,160
consciousness is that the kind of

5609
03:13:20,630 --> 03:13:17,359
consciousness you see for

5610
03:13:22,469 --> 03:13:20,640
mind at large the kind of consciousness

5611
03:13:24,309 --> 03:13:22,479
without intentionality and intelligence

5612
03:13:25,670 --> 03:13:24,319
i have in pure consciousness event

5613
03:13:28,150 --> 03:13:25,680
in which i'm not even conscious of my

5614
03:13:31,510 --> 03:13:28,160
consciousness i'm just conscious

5615
03:13:32,150 --> 03:13:31,520
is it something like that yes just just

5616
03:13:34,710 --> 03:13:32,160
a quick

5617
03:13:36,710 --> 03:13:34,720
uh a clarification when i use the the

5618
03:13:37,670 --> 03:13:36,720
term intentionality i mean it in a

5619
03:13:44,229 --> 03:13:37,680
technical sense

5620
03:13:47,910 --> 03:13:47,190
that is lost in the pc uh pce that's one

5621
03:13:50,150 --> 03:13:47,920
that's

5622
03:13:51,750 --> 03:13:50,160
by definition definition there cannot be

5623
03:13:53,429 --> 03:13:51,760
intentionality because

5624
03:13:55,670 --> 03:13:53,439
there is no aboutness there is only the

5625
03:13:58,469 --> 03:13:55,680
thing by definition there's no outside

5626
03:14:00,309 --> 03:13:58,479
intentionality arises when you but we

5627
03:14:01,830 --> 03:14:00,319
achieve intentionality

5628
03:14:03,510 --> 03:14:01,840
yeah because there is an outside world

5629
03:14:04,790 --> 03:14:03,520
an outside world is created once you

5630
03:14:06,550 --> 03:14:04,800
have a boundary i would say that

5631
03:14:08,229 --> 03:14:06,560
boundary is the dissociative boundary

5632
03:14:09,750 --> 03:14:08,239
it's the dissociation that creates the

5633
03:14:10,389 --> 03:14:09,760
distinction between the inside and the

5634
03:14:12,150 --> 03:14:10,399
outside

5635
03:14:13,590 --> 03:14:12,160
and now you can have intentionality or

5636
03:14:15,269 --> 03:14:13,600
aboutness because there is something

5637
03:14:16,070 --> 03:14:15,279
outside that you don't identify yourself

5638
03:14:17,990 --> 03:14:16,080
with

5639
03:14:19,429 --> 03:14:18,000
so intentionality emerges out of

5640
03:14:22,469 --> 03:14:19,439
non-intentional

5641
03:14:24,070 --> 03:14:22,479
states through dissociation but you know

5642
03:14:27,429 --> 03:14:24,080
that the problem of intentionality

5643
03:14:29,349 --> 03:14:27,439
is regarded as deeply a problem

5644
03:14:30,790 --> 03:14:29,359
for physicalism as the problem of

5645
03:14:32,070 --> 03:14:30,800
consciousness how do you get something

5646
03:14:34,150 --> 03:14:32,080
like intentionality

5647
03:14:35,990 --> 03:14:34,160
out of the physical universe that is not

5648
03:14:39,030 --> 03:14:36,000
intentional right

5649
03:14:41,670 --> 03:14:39,040
intentional content no no

5650
03:14:42,630 --> 03:14:41,680
the existence of the the the existence

5651
03:14:44,710 --> 03:14:42,640
of intentionality

5652
03:14:45,750 --> 03:14:44,720
i mean so the big problems are

5653
03:14:47,750 --> 03:14:45,760
consciousness

5654
03:14:49,269 --> 03:14:47,760
intentionality right how do you get i

5655
03:14:51,429 --> 03:14:49,279
mean that's what i think is actually

5656
03:14:53,110 --> 03:14:51,439
going on by the way and i think in in

5657
03:14:53,510 --> 03:14:53,120
searle's chinese room argument sarah

5658
03:14:55,269 --> 03:14:53,520
often

5659
03:14:57,030 --> 03:14:55,279
describes it that way is how do i get

5660
03:14:57,990 --> 03:14:57,040
intentionality how do i get the things

5661
03:15:01,349 --> 03:14:58,000
inside the room

5662
03:15:04,070 --> 03:15:01,359
to be about things outside the room and

5663
03:15:05,590 --> 03:15:04,080
he attributes that to consciousness but

5664
03:15:08,150 --> 03:15:05,600
obviously that's not what you're

5665
03:15:08,950 --> 03:15:08,160
claiming because the universal

5666
03:15:10,229 --> 03:15:08,960
consciousness

5667
03:15:11,990 --> 03:15:10,239
sorry keep changing the names on you

5668
03:15:14,469 --> 03:15:12,000
that's unfair it's okay

5669
03:15:15,590 --> 03:15:14,479
the mind at large um doesn't have

5670
03:15:17,429 --> 03:15:15,600
intentionality

5671
03:15:18,550 --> 03:15:17,439
so it's no different than the chinese

5672
03:15:19,429 --> 03:15:18,560
room right because it doesn't have

5673
03:15:21,590 --> 03:15:19,439
intentionality

5674
03:15:23,030 --> 03:15:21,600
no because remember i mentioned to you

5675
03:15:25,349 --> 03:15:23,040
that my interpretation of

5676
03:15:27,510 --> 03:15:25,359
uh soros thought experiment was that

5677
03:15:29,510 --> 03:15:27,520
what's missing is consciousness

5678
03:15:30,630 --> 03:15:29,520
and here what the consciousness supplies

5679
03:15:32,630 --> 03:15:30,640
is intentionality

5680
03:15:34,150 --> 03:15:32,640
that's why cyril claims again and again

5681
03:15:36,630 --> 03:15:34,160
it's an argument about meaning

5682
03:15:38,469 --> 03:15:36,640
all the syntax is there but as he says

5683
03:15:39,429 --> 03:15:38,479
there's no semantics there yes it's the

5684
03:15:41,670 --> 03:15:39,439
intentionality

5685
03:15:43,269 --> 03:15:41,680
right yeah but notice now that i am

5686
03:15:44,309 --> 03:15:43,279
already starting with phenomenal

5687
03:15:46,389 --> 03:15:44,319
consciousness

5688
03:15:47,750 --> 03:15:46,399
so that problem of intentionality you

5689
03:15:49,349 --> 03:15:47,760
don't have

5690
03:15:51,110 --> 03:15:49,359
because how does consciousness produce

5691
03:15:51,670 --> 03:15:51,120
intentionality don't you have that

5692
03:15:53,190 --> 03:15:51,680
problem

5693
03:15:54,710 --> 03:15:53,200
because consciousness at large doesn't

5694
03:15:56,389 --> 03:15:54,720
have intentionality

5695
03:15:58,389 --> 03:15:56,399
but once there is a dissociative

5696
03:16:00,469 --> 03:15:58,399
boundary then there is an outside

5697
03:16:02,469 --> 03:16:00,479
state of the world and there is an

5698
03:16:04,790 --> 03:16:02,479
inside state of the altar

5699
03:16:06,070 --> 03:16:04,800
through evolution you will start trying

5700
03:16:08,710 --> 03:16:06,080
to represent

5701
03:16:10,070 --> 03:16:08,720
outside states into inner states because

5702
03:16:11,750 --> 03:16:10,080
that's how you survive

5703
03:16:12,950 --> 03:16:11,760
now that representation will never be

5704
03:16:14,630 --> 03:16:12,960
mirrored because otherwise you would

5705
03:16:16,070 --> 03:16:14,640
dissolve into an internet tropic soup

5706
03:16:18,550 --> 03:16:16,080
we've known that since

5707
03:16:19,190 --> 03:16:18,560
10 years no no no no i think i think i'm

5708
03:16:21,030 --> 03:16:19,200
not presented

5709
03:16:22,630 --> 03:16:21,040
how would i give a machine the capacity

5710
03:16:25,830 --> 03:16:22,640
for intentionality

5711
03:16:27,750 --> 03:16:25,840
the moment but now now you're

5712
03:16:29,269 --> 03:16:27,760
you're not thinking within the framework

5713
03:16:30,790 --> 03:16:29,279
of what i'm putting forward

5714
03:16:32,550 --> 03:16:30,800
if you're assuming the machine is not

5715
03:16:34,229 --> 03:16:32,560
consciousness no no but you've already

5716
03:16:35,910 --> 03:16:34,239
admitted that consciousness

5717
03:16:37,429 --> 03:16:35,920
that base consciousness doesn't have

5718
03:16:39,110 --> 03:16:37,439
intentionality yeah so

5719
03:16:40,630 --> 03:16:39,120
you don't get to have intentionality

5720
03:16:42,950 --> 03:16:40,640
coming along for the ride

5721
03:16:44,469 --> 03:16:42,960
correct consciousness that's unfair yeah

5722
03:16:46,309 --> 03:16:44,479
do the original consciousness

5723
03:16:47,750 --> 03:16:46,319
that's what i try to explain so you

5724
03:16:49,670 --> 03:16:47,760
start with consciousness

5725
03:16:51,429 --> 03:16:49,680
so now what you have to explain is

5726
03:16:52,309 --> 03:16:51,439
having started with phenomenal

5727
03:16:54,389 --> 03:16:52,319
consciousness

5728
03:16:55,590 --> 03:16:54,399
how does intentionality arise how does

5729
03:16:57,670 --> 03:16:55,600
it arise

5730
03:16:59,750 --> 03:16:57,680
because it's better to survive if you

5731
03:17:01,349 --> 03:16:59,760
can represent the external environment

5732
03:17:03,510 --> 03:17:01,359
into inner states

5733
03:17:05,429 --> 03:17:03,520
the organism will do that and these

5734
03:17:07,510 --> 03:17:05,439
inner states would then be

5735
03:17:08,790 --> 03:17:07,520
phenomenal states what else can they be

5736
03:17:09,590 --> 03:17:08,800
i'm saying that everything is in

5737
03:17:11,750 --> 03:17:09,600
consciousness

5738
03:17:13,750 --> 03:17:11,760
then they that's how intentionality

5739
03:17:14,790 --> 03:17:13,760
arises no no that's a teleological

5740
03:17:16,630 --> 03:17:14,800
explanation

5741
03:17:17,830 --> 03:17:16,640
that's telling me that no no it's not

5742
03:17:20,309 --> 03:17:17,840
telling me how

5743
03:17:22,469 --> 03:17:20,319
it arises ontologically it's telling me

5744
03:17:23,990 --> 03:17:22,479
how it arises teleologically it's like

5745
03:17:26,389 --> 03:17:24,000
well how does the eye work well there

5746
03:17:28,150 --> 03:17:26,399
was evolution and natural selection

5747
03:17:30,870 --> 03:17:28,160
selected for things that had vision

5748
03:17:32,389 --> 03:17:30,880
and that's how vision arose okay no no

5749
03:17:32,950 --> 03:17:32,399
that's not that's not what i'm asking

5750
03:17:37,110 --> 03:17:32,960
for

5751
03:17:39,670 --> 03:17:37,120
did sensory organs

5752
03:17:40,790 --> 03:17:39,680
evolve you were asking for a mechanism

5753
03:17:42,870 --> 03:17:40,800
for that

5754
03:17:44,070 --> 03:17:42,880
and i would say the answer is the same

5755
03:17:45,910 --> 03:17:44,080
no no i'm not as

5756
03:17:47,590 --> 03:17:45,920
because the answer for how my eye

5757
03:17:48,469 --> 03:17:47,600
evolved is the same answer for how my

5758
03:17:50,229 --> 03:17:48,479
foot evolved

5759
03:17:51,910 --> 03:17:50,239
natural selection variation but that

5760
03:17:53,429 --> 03:17:51,920
doesn't mean that my foot functions

5761
03:17:55,510 --> 03:17:53,439
according to the same principles

5762
03:17:56,469 --> 03:17:55,520
that my eye does i want to know the

5763
03:17:58,150 --> 03:17:56,479
different things

5764
03:17:59,269 --> 03:17:58,160
i don't want to know the history i want

5765
03:18:00,229 --> 03:17:59,279
to know the structural functional

5766
03:18:02,790 --> 03:18:00,239
organization

5767
03:18:03,910 --> 03:18:02,800
that makes it causally possible that's

5768
03:18:06,389 --> 03:18:03,920
what i was trying to say

5769
03:18:07,269 --> 03:18:06,399
you will represent external states into

5770
03:18:09,269 --> 03:18:07,279
inner states

5771
03:18:10,469 --> 03:18:09,279
representation invokes intentionality

5772
03:18:11,349 --> 03:18:10,479
you're invoking the very thing you're

5773
03:18:12,550 --> 03:18:11,359
trying to explain

5774
03:18:14,550 --> 03:18:12,560
because what's the difference between a

5775
03:18:15,990 --> 03:18:14,560
representation and a non-representation

5776
03:18:17,750 --> 03:18:16,000
is that a representation possesses

5777
03:18:20,389 --> 03:18:17,760
intentionality then

5778
03:18:24,389 --> 03:18:20,399
then the the question you're asking is

5779
03:18:25,510 --> 03:18:24,399
how did the first sensory organ arose

5780
03:18:27,670 --> 03:18:25,520
because that's what does the

5781
03:18:29,750 --> 03:18:27,680
representation i want to

5782
03:18:30,710 --> 03:18:29,760
that's what does the representation that

5783
03:18:33,990 --> 03:18:30,720
doesn't tell me

5784
03:18:36,389 --> 03:18:34,000
how representation works you're pointing

5785
03:18:38,389 --> 03:18:36,399
me through the thing

5786
03:18:40,070 --> 03:18:38,399
what i'm trying to say is the answer to

5787
03:18:42,229 --> 03:18:40,080
your question is the same

5788
03:18:43,190 --> 03:18:42,239
answer that the physicalist would give

5789
03:18:45,349 --> 03:18:43,200
you because

5790
03:18:47,910 --> 03:18:45,359
it's the same process it's how did

5791
03:18:50,950 --> 03:18:47,920
sensorium arise

5792
03:18:53,510 --> 03:18:50,960
how did it happen well we we have

5793
03:18:55,030 --> 03:18:53,520
evolutionary biologists studying that

5794
03:18:57,030 --> 03:18:55,040
how would the inner states of an

5795
03:18:59,269 --> 03:18:57,040
organism represent the outer states of

5796
03:19:01,830 --> 03:18:59,279
the world around it so i don't need

5797
03:19:03,510 --> 03:19:01,840
a consciousness explanation therefore to

5798
03:19:05,349 --> 03:19:03,520
explain how intentionality

5799
03:19:07,349 --> 03:19:05,359
emerges out of consciousness i can give

5800
03:19:09,110 --> 03:19:07,359
a completely physical this mechanism

5801
03:19:10,710 --> 03:19:09,120
because that's what evolution is no it's

5802
03:19:13,349 --> 03:19:10,720
completely you can give

5803
03:19:14,950 --> 03:19:13,359
a purely physical explanation if you

5804
03:19:16,710 --> 03:19:14,960
already started with consciousness

5805
03:19:17,750 --> 03:19:16,720
because that's what solves the problem

5806
03:19:20,070 --> 03:19:17,760
cyril was

5807
03:19:20,870 --> 03:19:20,080
was referring to i i don't see that

5808
03:19:22,309 --> 03:19:20,880
because you said

5809
03:19:24,469 --> 03:19:22,319
the base consciousness doesn't have

5810
03:19:25,910 --> 03:19:24,479
intentionality so you don't get so i

5811
03:19:27,190 --> 03:19:25,920
need a mechanism of how something

5812
03:19:28,870 --> 03:19:27,200
without intentionality

5813
03:19:30,710 --> 03:19:28,880
gets intentionality and then you offer

5814
03:19:32,070 --> 03:19:30,720
me evolution which is a completely

5815
03:19:34,070 --> 03:19:32,080
physicalist explanation

5816
03:19:35,269 --> 03:19:34,080
which means i don't need physical i

5817
03:19:36,630 --> 03:19:35,279
don't need

5818
03:19:38,070 --> 03:19:36,640
consciousness to explain how i get

5819
03:19:39,670 --> 03:19:38,080
intentionality out of consciousness let

5820
03:19:41,590 --> 03:19:39,680
me try it another way try it another way

5821
03:19:44,389 --> 03:19:41,600
so let's forget consciousness let's talk

5822
03:19:47,590 --> 03:19:44,399
purely in physical terms

5823
03:19:50,309 --> 03:19:47,600
is it okay that we say uh

5824
03:19:52,469 --> 03:19:50,319
physical organisms very simple life

5825
03:19:55,670 --> 03:19:52,479
three and a half billion years ago

5826
03:19:57,429 --> 03:19:55,680
uh evolved so to represent physical

5827
03:19:58,950 --> 03:19:57,439
states of the world outside into

5828
03:20:01,190 --> 03:19:58,960
internal states

5829
03:20:02,870 --> 03:20:01,200
i think that's a very hard problem i

5830
03:20:06,309 --> 03:20:02,880
like knowing how that works

5831
03:20:09,590 --> 03:20:06,319
but you accept it happened yes okay

5832
03:20:11,190 --> 03:20:09,600
now if we accept that this happened

5833
03:20:13,269 --> 03:20:11,200
what is the problem remaining the

5834
03:20:15,349 --> 03:20:13,279
problem remaining is that those internal

5835
03:20:17,429 --> 03:20:15,359
physical states are not conscious

5836
03:20:18,550 --> 03:20:17,439
so there isn't intentionality but what

5837
03:20:20,309 --> 03:20:18,560
i'm saying is that

5838
03:20:21,830 --> 03:20:20,319
the physicality is the extrinsic

5839
03:20:23,910 --> 03:20:21,840
appearance of what's going on

5840
03:20:26,150 --> 03:20:23,920
but the intrinsic view the thing in

5841
03:20:27,830 --> 03:20:26,160
itself those internal states are

5842
03:20:28,870 --> 03:20:27,840
phenomenal states because they cannot be

5843
03:20:31,110 --> 03:20:28,880
anything else

5844
03:20:31,910 --> 03:20:31,120
no no the problem is that intentionality

5845
03:20:33,670 --> 03:20:31,920
doesn't

5846
03:20:35,590 --> 03:20:33,680
i i i think this is a problem also for

5847
03:20:38,070 --> 03:20:35,600
physicalism but but right i'm

5848
03:20:39,750 --> 03:20:38,080
right and so i i i i think you're

5849
03:20:42,550 --> 03:20:39,760
mistaking what i'm trying to do

5850
03:20:44,070 --> 03:20:42,560
right intentionality is not like any

5851
03:20:45,269 --> 03:20:44,080
it's not like any physical i mean this

5852
03:20:47,429 --> 03:20:45,279
is brian kent well smith

5853
03:20:48,309 --> 03:20:47,439
i can be an intentional relationship to

5854
03:20:50,150 --> 03:20:48,319
things that i can

5855
03:20:51,510 --> 03:20:50,160
to things outside the light cone i just

5856
03:20:53,349 --> 03:20:51,520
did it i thought about it

5857
03:20:55,190 --> 03:20:53,359
that's the intent that's what it's about

5858
03:20:55,990 --> 03:20:55,200
but i'm not in causal relationship i

5859
03:20:58,070 --> 03:20:56,000
can't be

5860
03:20:59,910 --> 03:20:58,080
with things outside the light code i can

5861
03:21:01,670 --> 03:20:59,920
think about napoleon

5862
03:21:03,349 --> 03:21:01,680
and i can't be in causal relationship

5863
03:21:05,910 --> 03:21:03,359
with him because he doesn't exist

5864
03:21:07,030 --> 03:21:05,920
right anymore right intentionality is

5865
03:21:09,990 --> 03:21:07,040
not you can't

5866
03:21:11,429 --> 03:21:10,000
it's not reducible to causation in any

5867
03:21:13,030 --> 03:21:11,439
kind of easy fashion

5868
03:21:14,870 --> 03:21:13,040
and so i don't think you can just say

5869
03:21:16,229 --> 03:21:14,880
consciousness without intentionality

5870
03:21:18,710 --> 03:21:16,239
some causal process and then

5871
03:21:21,349 --> 03:21:18,720
intentionality

5872
03:21:22,790 --> 03:21:21,359
i analytical idealism doesn't solve

5873
03:21:24,710 --> 03:21:22,800
scientific problems

5874
03:21:27,030 --> 03:21:24,720
it provides an interpretation to

5875
03:21:28,469 --> 03:21:27,040
scientists

5876
03:21:30,070 --> 03:21:28,479
i think the problem of intention i think

5877
03:21:30,469 --> 03:21:30,080
intentionality is a philosophical

5878
03:21:32,309 --> 03:21:30,479
problem

5879
03:21:34,150 --> 03:21:32,319
but what you described as intentionality

5880
03:21:35,110 --> 03:21:34,160
just now like napoleon and what's

5881
03:21:37,990 --> 03:21:35,120
happening beyond the

5882
03:21:39,429 --> 03:21:38,000
event horizon of the cone of the

5883
03:21:40,790 --> 03:21:39,439
universe that we can see because the

5884
03:21:44,389 --> 03:21:40,800
light has already arrived

5885
03:21:45,269 --> 03:21:44,399
at where we are that's more complex than

5886
03:21:47,429 --> 03:21:45,279
i think the

5887
03:21:49,110 --> 03:21:47,439
normal definition of intentionality in

5888
03:21:53,190 --> 03:21:49,120
philosophy which is just

5889
03:21:56,229 --> 03:21:55,429
conscious state that reflects i don't

5890
03:21:58,229 --> 03:21:56,239
agree with that

5891
03:21:59,910 --> 03:21:58,239
you just i don't i don't think so maybe

5892
03:22:01,110 --> 03:21:59,920
maybe we're maybe we move in different

5893
03:22:02,550 --> 03:22:01,120
philosophical circles

5894
03:22:04,870 --> 03:22:02,560
the part of philosophy that overlaps

5895
03:22:06,710 --> 03:22:04,880
with cogsi is really really concerned

5896
03:22:07,990 --> 03:22:06,720
like take a look at like brian cantwell

5897
03:22:09,750 --> 03:22:08,000
smith he's a colleague of mine

5898
03:22:11,830 --> 03:22:09,760
at the university of toronto and you

5899
03:22:14,309 --> 03:22:11,840
know uh all of third wave

5900
03:22:15,910 --> 03:22:14,319
uh you know cognitive science is deeply

5901
03:22:17,910 --> 03:22:15,920
influenced by phenomenology and so

5902
03:22:20,150 --> 03:22:17,920
houston's notions of intentionality

5903
03:22:21,269 --> 03:22:20,160
uh which are supposed to do deal with

5904
03:22:23,750 --> 03:22:21,279
things like this

5905
03:22:24,469 --> 03:22:23,760
um are also pertinent issues and i and i

5906
03:22:26,469 --> 03:22:24,479
think

5907
03:22:27,750 --> 03:22:26,479
uh you know that's what cyril is talking

5908
03:22:29,429 --> 03:22:27,760
about he's talking about

5909
03:22:31,590 --> 03:22:29,439
the kind of intentionality that is born

5910
03:22:33,269 --> 03:22:31,600
in a language that's why he uses the

5911
03:22:34,389 --> 03:22:33,279
example of chinese right

5912
03:22:35,990 --> 03:22:34,399
he's not talking about just simple

5913
03:22:36,950 --> 03:22:36,000
perceptual he's talking about the kind

5914
03:22:39,030 --> 03:22:36,960
of intentionality

5915
03:22:41,030 --> 03:22:39,040
that's born in chinese i i assume that

5916
03:22:42,469 --> 03:22:41,040
chinese people can talk about napoleon

5917
03:22:44,870 --> 03:22:42,479
and they can talk about things outside

5918
03:22:46,630 --> 03:22:44,880
the light cone

5919
03:22:48,469 --> 03:22:46,640
i'm probably missing something in your

5920
03:22:49,990 --> 03:22:48,479
argument i i i don't see the problem

5921
03:22:53,110 --> 03:22:50,000
once the inner states

5922
03:22:54,790 --> 03:22:53,120
are conscious states associations will

5923
03:22:56,550 --> 03:22:54,800
be established through learning

5924
03:22:58,229 --> 03:22:56,560
between your inner states and your

5925
03:22:59,830 --> 03:22:58,239
social media

5926
03:23:01,510 --> 03:22:59,840
you can't get intentionality out of

5927
03:23:02,550 --> 03:23:01,520
association this is one of the problems

5928
03:23:05,190 --> 03:23:02,560
that bedevils

5929
03:23:05,910 --> 03:23:05,200
neural networks when neural networks are

5930
03:23:10,229 --> 03:23:05,920
firing

5931
03:23:13,269 --> 03:23:10,239
three nodes john love and mary they're

5932
03:23:15,110 --> 03:23:13,279
all right associated with each other

5933
03:23:17,269 --> 03:23:15,120
but that that can't distinguish between

5934
03:23:18,630 --> 03:23:17,279
mary loves john and john loves mary yeah

5935
03:23:20,469 --> 03:23:18,640
which is an intentional difference

5936
03:23:22,309 --> 03:23:20,479
and that's that's that's a that's still

5937
03:23:23,750 --> 03:23:22,319
the existing problem for neural networks

5938
03:23:25,269 --> 03:23:23,760
that hasn't been solved

5939
03:23:26,870 --> 03:23:25,279
right i think that's a representation

5940
03:23:28,870 --> 03:23:26,880
problem because neural networks in

5941
03:23:30,070 --> 03:23:28,880
silicon as we do them to today digital

5942
03:23:32,950 --> 03:23:30,080
neural networks

5943
03:23:33,269 --> 03:23:32,960
uh they don't have uh symbolic anchoring

5944
03:23:37,429 --> 03:23:33,279
to

5945
03:23:40,229 --> 03:23:37,439
everything is encoded in bytes

5946
03:23:41,269 --> 03:23:40,239
uh which are symbols uh there is a there

5947
03:23:45,670 --> 03:23:41,279
is work done

5948
03:23:48,710 --> 03:23:45,680
by an ai researcher 17 years ago

5949
03:23:50,550 --> 03:23:48,720
begun 17 years ago penti heikon he used

5950
03:23:52,309 --> 03:23:50,560
to work at the nokia research

5951
03:23:53,910 --> 03:23:52,319
and he wrote a series of books about

5952
03:23:55,510 --> 03:23:53,920
conscious computers i think they are

5953
03:23:58,550 --> 03:23:55,520
flawed philosophically

5954
03:23:59,670 --> 03:23:58,560
but he makes this point clearly that if

5955
03:24:02,309 --> 03:23:59,680
you preserve

5956
03:24:04,070 --> 03:24:02,319
a semantic anchoring between the inner

5957
03:24:06,309 --> 03:24:04,080
representations of the computer

5958
03:24:08,150 --> 03:24:06,319
and the origin of that signal from a

5959
03:24:10,070 --> 03:24:08,160
certain quality of perception

5960
03:24:12,150 --> 03:24:10,080
that problem is solved the problem

5961
03:24:14,229 --> 03:24:12,160
arises because we encode things

5962
03:24:16,870 --> 03:24:14,239
arbitrarily

5963
03:24:18,870 --> 03:24:16,880
sorry i have to interject as a moderator

5964
03:24:20,309 --> 03:24:18,880
before we go forward some people are

5965
03:24:21,750 --> 03:24:20,319
are saying rightly so that they know

5966
03:24:22,389 --> 03:24:21,760
plenty more about bernardo's position

5967
03:24:24,309 --> 03:24:22,399
than they do

5968
03:24:26,389 --> 03:24:24,319
about yours john and that's because

5969
03:24:29,349 --> 03:24:26,399
bernardo's is so outside

5970
03:24:30,870 --> 03:24:29,359
the norm for us for the majority of

5971
03:24:33,349 --> 03:24:30,880
people that it's more interesting to

5972
03:24:35,269 --> 03:24:33,359
hear in many ways

5973
03:24:37,030 --> 03:24:35,279
i think it's also credit to how well he

5974
03:24:38,469 --> 03:24:37,040
articulates and defends his position i

5975
03:24:38,950 --> 03:24:38,479
think we should give credit to him it's

5976
03:24:42,630 --> 03:24:38,960
not just

5977
03:24:44,630 --> 03:24:42,640
that it's uh

5978
03:24:45,750 --> 03:24:44,640
uh less familiar or novel i think he's

5979
03:24:48,950 --> 03:24:45,760
actually also you know

5980
03:24:51,190 --> 03:24:48,960
i also think so so john

5981
03:24:52,710 --> 03:24:51,200
do you mind giving the audience a

5982
03:24:55,030 --> 03:24:52,720
background as to what you

5983
03:24:56,389 --> 03:24:55,040
believe exist ontologically or what your

5984
03:24:58,710 --> 03:24:56,399
philosophical

5985
03:24:59,429 --> 03:24:58,720
point of view is well i tried to do that

5986
03:25:01,990 --> 03:24:59,439
at the beginning

5987
03:25:02,870 --> 03:25:02,000
um and there and and and part of the

5988
03:25:04,309 --> 03:25:02,880
reason why

5989
03:25:05,670 --> 03:25:04,319
i think bernardo and i are not just

5990
03:25:06,950 --> 03:25:05,680
shouting at each other is that there are

5991
03:25:07,990 --> 03:25:06,960
there are overlaps between our

5992
03:25:11,269 --> 03:25:08,000
ontologies

5993
03:25:12,550 --> 03:25:11,279
in certain ways um so i describe myself

5994
03:25:16,150 --> 03:25:12,560
as a naturalist

5995
03:25:17,750 --> 03:25:16,160
um which means uh as i said i'm not a

5996
03:25:18,950 --> 03:25:17,760
materialist because i don't think that

5997
03:25:20,469 --> 03:25:18,960
everything's made out of matter

5998
03:25:22,550 --> 03:25:20,479
i think that's a that's a ridiculous

5999
03:25:23,830 --> 03:25:22,560
claim um

6000
03:25:25,590 --> 03:25:23,840
i don't think you can do science with

6001
03:25:26,790 --> 03:25:25,600
pro-materialism i think scientists who

6002
03:25:27,910 --> 03:25:26,800
claim they're materialists

6003
03:25:29,910 --> 03:25:27,920
are engaging in performative

6004
03:25:31,309 --> 03:25:29,920
contradiction i think scientists have to

6005
03:25:33,670 --> 03:25:31,319
invoke

6006
03:25:34,229 --> 03:25:33,680
non-spatiotemporal relations uh to do

6007
03:25:36,070 --> 03:25:34,239
science

6008
03:25:38,469 --> 03:25:36,080
and berman and others have argued that

6009
03:25:40,229 --> 03:25:38,479
and therefore uh trying to reduce it

6010
03:25:42,389 --> 03:25:40,239
even to causal relations

6011
03:25:44,229 --> 03:25:42,399
uh and special temple relations i think

6012
03:25:47,429 --> 03:25:44,239
can't explain how you do science

6013
03:25:48,229 --> 03:25:47,439
um i do think that uh everything we do

6014
03:25:50,710 --> 03:25:48,239
has to be

6015
03:25:52,150 --> 03:25:50,720
consistent with what our science i don't

6016
03:25:54,070 --> 03:25:52,160
think bernardo is like

6017
03:25:55,349 --> 03:25:54,080
disagreeing with that either so i

6018
03:25:58,469 --> 03:25:55,359
completely agree

6019
03:26:01,269 --> 03:25:58,479
okay uh so thank you bernardo uh so i

6020
03:26:02,469 --> 03:26:01,279
my position is and again i'm not i i'm

6021
03:26:04,150 --> 03:26:02,479
not isolated

6022
03:26:06,309 --> 03:26:04,160
any more than bernardo is i think he's a

6023
03:26:08,469 --> 03:26:06,319
little bit more of a pioneer right now

6024
03:26:09,830 --> 03:26:08,479
i'll give him credit for that uh but

6025
03:26:12,469 --> 03:26:09,840
there are many people

6026
03:26:14,469 --> 03:26:12,479
um outside of like i would say like

6027
03:26:15,590 --> 03:26:14,479
neuroscience and things like that within

6028
03:26:18,070 --> 03:26:15,600
cognitive science

6029
03:26:19,429 --> 03:26:18,080
and that's the only audience i'm really

6030
03:26:21,429 --> 03:26:19,439
that conversant with

6031
03:26:23,110 --> 03:26:21,439
who would agree with what's called a

6032
03:26:25,349 --> 03:26:23,120
non-reductive physicalism

6033
03:26:27,590 --> 03:26:25,359
and this is the idea that you have to

6034
03:26:28,469 --> 03:26:27,600
count the layers at which we're doing

6035
03:26:30,389 --> 03:26:28,479
our science

6036
03:26:32,150 --> 03:26:30,399
the layers these are just metaphors by

6037
03:26:33,510 --> 03:26:32,160
the way the layers at which we're doing

6038
03:26:35,830 --> 03:26:33,520
science as real

6039
03:26:37,429 --> 03:26:35,840
as any other layer we point to with our

6040
03:26:38,469 --> 03:26:37,439
science because you get into all kinds

6041
03:26:40,630 --> 03:26:38,479
of contradictions

6042
03:26:41,830 --> 03:26:40,640
you don't so i think this world that i'm

6043
03:26:44,070 --> 03:26:41,840
experiencing right now

6044
03:26:45,110 --> 03:26:44,080
is as real as the world of quantum

6045
03:26:47,750 --> 03:26:45,120
probabilities

6046
03:26:49,510 --> 03:26:47,760
for example and and the pro and then you

6047
03:26:51,110 --> 03:26:49,520
and then and the reason with that is

6048
03:26:52,309 --> 03:26:51,120
like if you drop down to that level you

6049
03:26:53,990 --> 03:26:52,319
lose all the differences that are

6050
03:26:54,469 --> 03:26:54,000
required for science and required for

6051
03:26:56,229 --> 03:26:54,479
knowledge

6052
03:26:58,389 --> 03:26:56,239
required for information blah blah blah

6053
03:26:59,830 --> 03:26:58,399
i can do that in in at more length

6054
03:27:01,030 --> 03:26:59,840
but i'm not trying to defend it right

6055
03:27:02,309 --> 03:27:01,040
now i'm just trying to describe it i'm

6056
03:27:03,510 --> 03:27:02,319
just trying to show you that

6057
03:27:06,389 --> 03:27:03,520
it does come out of reasoning and

6058
03:27:08,630 --> 03:27:06,399
argumentation right and so

6059
03:27:09,910 --> 03:27:08,640
i think that they're and unlike many

6060
03:27:11,269 --> 03:27:09,920
people so this is where i'm

6061
03:27:13,349 --> 03:27:11,279
a bit of a pride here i'm much more of a

6062
03:27:15,030 --> 03:27:13,359
neoplatonous i think we have to talk

6063
03:27:15,910 --> 03:27:15,040
about equally about emergence and

6064
03:27:17,990 --> 03:27:15,920
emanation

6065
03:27:19,429 --> 03:27:18,000
i think there's ways in which real in

6066
03:27:22,309 --> 03:27:19,439
which uh

6067
03:27:23,349 --> 03:27:22,319
the possibilities of form are really

6068
03:27:25,349 --> 03:27:23,359
structured

6069
03:27:27,190 --> 03:27:25,359
and i don't equate actuality with

6070
03:27:29,429 --> 03:27:27,200
reality that's the influence of eastern

6071
03:27:31,349 --> 03:27:29,439
thinking on me i think that possibility

6072
03:27:32,150 --> 03:27:31,359
we have to treat possibility just as

6073
03:27:33,910 --> 03:27:32,160
real

6074
03:27:35,269 --> 03:27:33,920
as actuality and we do this with things

6075
03:27:37,590 --> 03:27:35,279
like potential energy

6076
03:27:38,870 --> 03:27:37,600
and stuff like that anyway and laws what

6077
03:27:40,710 --> 03:27:38,880
are laws laws aren't

6078
03:27:42,710 --> 03:27:40,720
advanced they're not actions they're

6079
03:27:45,030 --> 03:27:42,720
real constraints on what can happen

6080
03:27:45,910 --> 03:27:45,040
they're real and so as much as there is

6081
03:27:48,550 --> 03:27:45,920
emergence

6082
03:27:49,990 --> 03:27:48,560
bottom up from the physical substrata

6083
03:27:50,950 --> 03:27:50,000
there's emanation down from the

6084
03:27:53,510 --> 03:27:50,960
non-space

6085
03:27:54,389 --> 03:27:53,520
non-spatial temporal sets of constraints

6086
03:27:56,710 --> 03:27:54,399
on possib

6087
03:27:57,830 --> 03:27:56,720
possibility and some people say that

6088
03:27:59,750 --> 03:27:57,840
that's sort of cryptically

6089
03:28:01,269 --> 03:27:59,760
whitehead's god or something like that i

6090
03:28:02,950 --> 03:28:01,279
don't know if i have to go there

6091
03:28:04,710 --> 03:28:02,960
but i wouldn't say it's something like

6092
03:28:07,190 --> 03:28:04,720
the neoplatonic one

6093
03:28:08,469 --> 03:28:07,200
and you know and that's not really that

6094
03:28:10,309 --> 03:28:08,479
strange if you look

6095
03:28:11,910 --> 03:28:10,319
you if you look at the history if you

6096
03:28:13,110 --> 03:28:11,920
look at people you know john spencer's

6097
03:28:14,630 --> 03:28:13,120
work on the eternal law

6098
03:28:15,910 --> 03:28:14,640
other people like that a lot of the

6099
03:28:17,429 --> 03:28:15,920
people that brought about the

6100
03:28:18,229 --> 03:28:17,439
revolutions that we're talking about

6101
03:28:20,950 --> 03:28:18,239
right now

6102
03:28:22,309 --> 03:28:20,960
in science uh or that we're pursuing so

6103
03:28:24,790 --> 03:28:22,319
in our discussion about science

6104
03:28:26,550 --> 03:28:24,800
a lot of them had direct like explicit

6105
03:28:27,190 --> 03:28:26,560
connections to neoplatonism or similar

6106
03:28:29,429 --> 03:28:27,200
things

6107
03:28:30,389 --> 03:28:29,439
or they had connections to like einstein

6108
03:28:32,389 --> 03:28:30,399
with spinoza

6109
03:28:34,229 --> 03:28:32,399
and spinosus deeply in the neoplatonic

6110
03:28:37,349 --> 03:28:34,239
tradition he uses

6111
03:28:38,469 --> 03:28:37,359
uh you know he basically co-ops propolis

6112
03:28:40,469 --> 03:28:38,479
elements of theology

6113
03:28:41,990 --> 03:28:40,479
for the structure that he uses for the

6114
03:28:44,630 --> 03:28:42,000
ethics and things like that

6115
03:28:46,389 --> 03:28:44,640
um so what i'm saying is although i i

6116
03:28:47,429 --> 03:28:46,399
don't i want to be clear i'm not i i

6117
03:28:50,550 --> 03:28:47,439
don't present

6118
03:28:52,309 --> 03:28:50,560
that position a position you see in

6119
03:28:53,349 --> 03:28:52,319
people like john scottis irregina

6120
03:28:55,510 --> 03:28:53,359
of the complete complete

6121
03:28:58,070 --> 03:28:55,520
interpenetration as

6122
03:28:58,550 --> 03:28:58,080
um the consensus position i want to say

6123
03:29:01,110 --> 03:28:58,560
that there

6124
03:29:02,469 --> 03:29:01,120
are there have been uh notable people

6125
03:29:03,990 --> 03:29:02,479
within the history even the recent

6126
03:29:06,389 --> 03:29:04,000
history of science that have had

6127
03:29:07,590 --> 03:29:06,399
uh this position and very important

6128
03:29:09,190 --> 03:29:07,600
people in the history

6129
03:29:10,790 --> 03:29:09,200
of philosophy the whole neoplatonic

6130
03:29:13,750 --> 03:29:10,800
tradition um

6131
03:29:15,830 --> 03:29:13,760
uh especially post platinus uh john

6132
03:29:18,950 --> 03:29:15,840
scottis aerogena as an example

6133
03:29:21,830 --> 03:29:18,960
so i think that reality is

6134
03:29:22,389 --> 03:29:21,840
understood in the way our cognition

6135
03:29:24,950 --> 03:29:22,399
works

6136
03:29:25,670 --> 03:29:24,960
uh simultaneously bottom-up and top-down

6137
03:29:27,990 --> 03:29:25,680
fashion

6138
03:29:29,750 --> 03:29:28,000
that there are bottom-up causal

6139
03:29:32,870 --> 03:29:29,760
interactions top-down

6140
03:29:35,269 --> 03:29:32,880
uh constraints which aren't causes um

6141
03:29:37,429 --> 03:29:35,279
and they afford all of the structural

6142
03:29:39,990 --> 03:29:37,439
functional organization that accounts

6143
03:29:40,950 --> 03:29:40,000
for most of the phenomena that are uh in

6144
03:29:44,469 --> 03:29:40,960
dispute here

6145
03:29:45,830 --> 03:29:44,479
um i do think for example and i haven't

6146
03:29:47,670 --> 03:29:45,840
i haven't tried to make that argument

6147
03:29:49,269 --> 03:29:47,680
here people can look at it i have an

6148
03:29:50,070 --> 03:29:49,279
existing series out there i'm tangling

6149
03:29:52,150 --> 03:29:50,080
the world not

6150
03:29:54,309 --> 03:29:52,160
with greg enriquez i do think you can

6151
03:29:55,670 --> 03:29:54,319
fatten up access consciousness

6152
03:29:57,750 --> 03:29:55,680
uh so that you can get a lot of

6153
03:29:59,830 --> 03:29:57,760
phenomenal consciousness out of it

6154
03:30:01,590 --> 03:29:59,840
so one of the main things i argue is

6155
03:30:03,030 --> 03:30:01,600
that if you give a system intelligence

6156
03:30:04,630 --> 03:30:03,040
and you give it relevance realization

6157
03:30:06,229 --> 03:30:04,640
you're giving it foregrounding

6158
03:30:07,910 --> 03:30:06,239
and backgrounding of information you're

6159
03:30:09,190 --> 03:30:07,920
giving it as specialization

6160
03:30:11,429 --> 03:30:09,200
you're giving it a lot of what i call

6161
03:30:13,030 --> 03:30:11,439
the adverbial qualia the hear

6162
03:30:14,870 --> 03:30:13,040
the hereness and the noun-ness and the

6163
03:30:16,389 --> 03:30:14,880
togetherness of

6164
03:30:17,990 --> 03:30:16,399
consciousness which is not the same

6165
03:30:20,550 --> 03:30:18,000
thing as the standard qualia

6166
03:30:21,750 --> 03:30:20,560
of blueness and greenness and yellowness

6167
03:30:22,950 --> 03:30:21,760
and things like that

6168
03:30:25,110 --> 03:30:22,960
and the thing that's interesting about

6169
03:30:26,469 --> 03:30:25,120
those adverbial qualia is unlike the

6170
03:30:28,309 --> 03:30:26,479
adjectival qualia

6171
03:30:29,510 --> 03:30:28,319
they don't disappear in the pure

6172
03:30:31,510 --> 03:30:29,520
consciousness event

6173
03:30:32,550 --> 03:30:31,520
they're still there people describe the

6174
03:30:35,030 --> 03:30:32,560
hereness as

6175
03:30:37,190 --> 03:30:35,040
presence the nowness as eternity and the

6176
03:30:39,110 --> 03:30:37,200
togetherness is absolute unity

6177
03:30:40,710 --> 03:30:39,120
um so the adverbial quality has seemed

6178
03:30:41,590 --> 03:30:40,720
to be necessary and sufficient for

6179
03:30:43,429 --> 03:30:41,600
consciousness

6180
03:30:44,790 --> 03:30:43,439
and the adjectival qualia that gets so

6181
03:30:46,469 --> 03:30:44,800
many of these arguments going

6182
03:30:47,910 --> 03:30:46,479
i think aren't necessary and sufficient

6183
03:30:49,190 --> 03:30:47,920
for consciousness i don't think that

6184
03:30:50,710 --> 03:30:49,200
means they're unproblematic

6185
03:30:53,030 --> 03:30:50,720
i don't think i've solved that problem

6186
03:30:53,830 --> 03:30:53,040
but what i think i i would argue is that

6187
03:30:55,990 --> 03:30:53,840
we can thicken up

6188
03:30:57,510 --> 03:30:56,000
access consciousness to get a lot of the

6189
03:31:00,550 --> 03:30:57,520
phenomenology

6190
03:31:02,550 --> 03:31:00,560
of our consciousness and that makes me s

6191
03:31:04,630 --> 03:31:02,560
not so convinced that we won't be able

6192
03:31:05,269 --> 03:31:04,640
to cross the gap even more like we have

6193
03:31:08,389 --> 03:31:05,279
with

6194
03:31:11,030 --> 03:31:08,399
position

6195
03:31:12,469 --> 03:31:11,040
now i am not i hope i didn't come across

6196
03:31:13,830 --> 03:31:12,479
eric enough to claim that i have a

6197
03:31:16,229 --> 03:31:13,840
foreclosure argument

6198
03:31:16,950 --> 03:31:16,239
and that therefore i think bernardo is

6199
03:31:18,630 --> 03:31:16,960
insane

6200
03:31:20,710 --> 03:31:18,640
or his position is not intellectually

6201
03:31:21,830 --> 03:31:20,720
respectable far from it i wouldn't be

6202
03:31:23,830 --> 03:31:21,840
doing this if i

6203
03:31:26,229 --> 03:31:23,840
thought that but you were asking me to

6204
03:31:29,349 --> 03:31:26,239
state what my position is and that's

6205
03:31:31,670 --> 03:31:29,359
where my position is and so one

6206
03:31:32,469 --> 03:31:31,680
one more thing bernardo um i i like i

6207
03:31:36,229 --> 03:31:32,479
said i i

6208
03:31:36,550 --> 03:31:36,239
i i i want to be able to explain what i

6209
03:31:38,630 --> 03:31:36,560
think

6210
03:31:39,990 --> 03:31:38,640
is the base state of consciousness for

6211
03:31:41,670 --> 03:31:40,000
us and that for

6212
03:31:43,190 --> 03:31:41,680
bernardo said it might be the best

6213
03:31:44,870 --> 03:31:43,200
analog for cosmic

6214
03:31:46,870 --> 03:31:44,880
mind which is the pure consciousness

6215
03:31:49,510 --> 03:31:46,880
event and like i said

6216
03:31:49,910 --> 03:31:49,520
that that seems to be completely the

6217
03:31:53,269 --> 03:31:49,920
reason

6218
03:31:56,550 --> 03:31:53,279
we don't blank out and lose memory of it

6219
03:31:58,229 --> 03:31:56,560
is because it's not absolutely absent of

6220
03:32:00,070 --> 03:31:58,239
content it has no representational

6221
03:32:02,790 --> 03:32:00,080
conceptual propositional content

6222
03:32:03,670 --> 03:32:02,800
it has no adjectival content but it does

6223
03:32:05,269 --> 03:32:03,680
have

6224
03:32:06,790 --> 03:32:05,279
hereness now in his togetherness it does

6225
03:32:08,870 --> 03:32:06,800
have the adverbial

6226
03:32:10,790 --> 03:32:08,880
aspects and so i take those to be

6227
03:32:11,349 --> 03:32:10,800
something for which we might be able to

6228
03:32:13,830 --> 03:32:11,359
get

6229
03:32:15,510 --> 03:32:13,840
an overlapping explanation between them

6230
03:32:17,030 --> 03:32:15,520
and how intelligence works in terms of

6231
03:32:20,150 --> 03:32:17,040
relevance realization

6232
03:32:23,510 --> 03:32:20,160
and many of the people uh you know

6233
03:32:25,590 --> 03:32:23,520
uh you know bars is explicit that the

6234
03:32:27,110 --> 03:32:25,600
the function of consciousness is higher

6235
03:32:29,110 --> 03:32:27,120
order relevance realization

6236
03:32:31,830 --> 03:32:29,120
working memory lynn hasher is higher

6237
03:32:32,950 --> 03:32:31,840
order elements realization tononi

6238
03:32:34,550 --> 03:32:32,960
well his isn't about relevance

6239
03:32:35,349 --> 03:32:34,560
realization yeah he asked him for his

6240
03:32:41,429 --> 03:32:35,359
test

6241
03:32:43,110 --> 03:32:41,439
appropriateness blah blah blah blah

6242
03:32:45,190 --> 03:32:43,120
say thing with clear means and his

6243
03:32:46,550 --> 03:32:45,200
caring higher order caring for lower

6244
03:32:48,550 --> 03:32:46,560
order representations

6245
03:32:50,150 --> 03:32:48,560
all the higher order ones because they

6246
03:32:53,030 --> 03:32:50,160
can't be inferential uh

6247
03:32:53,990 --> 03:32:53,040
involves some kind of uh appropriateness

6248
03:32:56,389 --> 03:32:54,000
or relevance thing

6249
03:32:57,670 --> 03:32:56,399
so a lot of the access models already

6250
03:32:58,550 --> 03:32:57,680
already converging on relevance

6251
03:33:00,309 --> 03:32:58,560
realization

6252
03:33:01,910 --> 03:33:00,319
and i think you can thicken that up if

6253
03:33:04,710 --> 03:33:01,920
you'll allow me a metaphor

6254
03:33:06,070 --> 03:33:04,720
to get a lot more of the phenomenology

6255
03:33:09,590 --> 03:33:06,080
that's my position

6256
03:33:11,830 --> 03:33:09,600
and um now that the thing about that is

6257
03:33:13,349 --> 03:33:11,840
that could the the the thing that's kind

6258
03:33:13,990 --> 03:33:13,359
of like going like this between bernardo

6259
03:33:16,870 --> 03:33:14,000
and i

6260
03:33:17,590 --> 03:33:16,880
is uh suppose that turned out to be

6261
03:33:19,670 --> 03:33:17,600
right

6262
03:33:21,510 --> 03:33:19,680
bernardo could still make his arguments

6263
03:33:22,870 --> 03:33:21,520
right his argument i don't think his

6264
03:33:26,150 --> 03:33:22,880
arguments ultimately

6265
03:33:27,190 --> 03:33:26,160
would be defeated if that turned out to

6266
03:33:29,190 --> 03:33:27,200
be right

6267
03:33:31,110 --> 03:33:29,200
uh because he see he he seems to be

6268
03:33:32,150 --> 03:33:31,120
running them and i don't mean seem in

6269
03:33:34,229 --> 03:33:32,160
the pernicious sense

6270
03:33:35,910 --> 03:33:34,239
it i'm just saying it is my judgment

6271
03:33:36,309 --> 03:33:35,920
that he seems to be running them on to

6272
03:33:37,830 --> 03:33:36,319
on

6273
03:33:40,630 --> 03:33:37,840
the basis of sort of more fundamental

6274
03:33:41,830 --> 03:33:40,640
features um and so

6275
03:33:43,349 --> 03:33:41,840
that's what i've been trying to get

6276
03:33:43,990 --> 03:33:43,359
clear about i hope that was fair to you

6277
03:33:45,830 --> 03:33:44,000
bernardo

6278
03:33:47,349 --> 03:33:45,840
i hope that wasn't a misrepresentation

6279
03:33:48,150 --> 03:33:47,359
can i ask a couple of clarifying

6280
03:33:51,429 --> 03:33:48,160
questions uh

6281
03:33:55,590 --> 03:33:51,439
john so do i understand correctly

6282
03:33:59,269 --> 03:33:55,600
that um adverbial qualia

6283
03:34:00,950 --> 03:33:59,279
can be reduced to pure non-phenomenal

6284
03:34:03,030 --> 03:34:00,960
access conscious in your consciousness

6285
03:34:05,990 --> 03:34:03,040
in your view

6286
03:34:07,750 --> 03:34:06,000
yeah i think although part of what i'm

6287
03:34:10,790 --> 03:34:07,760
trying to do is undermine

6288
03:34:11,910 --> 03:34:10,800
uh the the the clean distinction and

6289
03:34:13,349 --> 03:34:11,920
other people have noted

6290
03:34:14,630 --> 03:34:13,359
noted this for block right the clean

6291
03:34:16,229 --> 03:34:14,640
distinction between access and

6292
03:34:19,269 --> 03:34:16,239
phenomenal consciousness

6293
03:34:21,030 --> 03:34:19,279
um because people have pointed out well

6294
03:34:22,469 --> 03:34:21,040
there seems to be something it's what it

6295
03:34:24,550 --> 03:34:22,479
is like to access

6296
03:34:25,510 --> 03:34:24,560
right or to be poised and i take

6297
03:34:27,670 --> 03:34:25,520
poisonness

6298
03:34:29,190 --> 03:34:27,680
which is the defining feature of access

6299
03:34:31,750 --> 03:34:29,200
consciousness to be

6300
03:34:33,030 --> 03:34:31,760
a a metaphor for very sophisticated

6301
03:34:35,190 --> 03:34:33,040
relevance realization

6302
03:34:37,269 --> 03:34:35,200
that's what i take it to me that i will

6303
03:34:39,670 --> 03:34:37,279
bring out of my long-term memory

6304
03:34:41,750 --> 03:34:39,680
what's most appropriate and i will

6305
03:34:45,429 --> 03:34:41,760
structure it in my working memory

6306
03:34:49,510 --> 03:34:45,439
so that it best fits the environment

6307
03:34:51,670 --> 03:34:49,520
et cetera et cetera so you do think we

6308
03:34:52,950 --> 03:34:51,680
should be able in principle at least to

6309
03:34:56,870 --> 03:34:52,960
reduce

6310
03:34:59,190 --> 03:34:56,880
adverbial qualia to non-phenomenal

6311
03:35:01,670 --> 03:34:59,200
access consciousness if by what you'd

6312
03:35:04,630 --> 03:35:01,680
reduce is that i would be able to

6313
03:35:05,910 --> 03:35:04,640
give an explanation of how it arises out

6314
03:35:08,710 --> 03:35:05,920
of something

6315
03:35:09,910 --> 03:35:08,720
that is yeah that's what i mean by it uh

6316
03:35:11,670 --> 03:35:09,920
that doesn't mean that i think it's

6317
03:35:12,550 --> 03:35:11,680
ontologically reducible for reasons i've

6318
03:35:16,790 --> 03:35:12,560
already given

6319
03:35:19,750 --> 03:35:16,800
uh but yes oh so it could be that

6320
03:35:20,870 --> 03:35:19,760
that entity that's performing access

6321
03:35:23,670 --> 03:35:20,880
consciousness

6322
03:35:26,309 --> 03:35:23,680
has adverb adverbial qualia as

6323
03:35:29,429 --> 03:35:26,319
fundamental properties of it

6324
03:35:32,550 --> 03:35:29,439
at least in potentiality yeah

6325
03:35:37,110 --> 03:35:32,560
yes so i i that would make

6326
03:35:38,790 --> 03:35:37,120
a pen psychist of you um

6327
03:35:40,870 --> 03:35:38,800
it depends i mean and this is a debate

6328
03:35:42,469 --> 03:35:40,880
it depe and again we've had this debate

6329
03:35:44,070 --> 03:35:42,479
i don't know we'll resolve it

6330
03:35:46,070 --> 03:35:44,080
i mean it makes me a deep continuity

6331
03:35:49,910 --> 03:35:46,080
theorist um

6332
03:35:51,590 --> 03:35:49,920
and where whereas again is that

6333
03:35:53,190 --> 03:35:51,600
is that enough of a difference of degree

6334
03:35:55,429 --> 03:35:53,200
that it's a difference in kind

6335
03:35:57,349 --> 03:35:55,439
et cetera and so i take it the the

6336
03:35:59,830 --> 03:35:57,359
difference between the deep continuity

6337
03:36:01,429 --> 03:35:59,840
i mean i've had debates with jp uh more

6338
03:36:03,030 --> 03:36:01,439
so about this and he is a

6339
03:36:05,110 --> 03:36:03,040
pen psychist although he seems to be

6340
03:36:07,190 --> 03:36:05,120
loosening that um

6341
03:36:09,670 --> 03:36:07,200
that uh that there's a difference

6342
03:36:11,910 --> 03:36:09,680
between pan psychism and deep continuity

6343
03:36:13,190 --> 03:36:11,920
um and so that the explanatory

6344
03:36:15,269 --> 03:36:13,200
principles might be the same but that

6345
03:36:17,429 --> 03:36:15,279
doesn't mean the entity is the same

6346
03:36:18,309 --> 03:36:17,439
and and and we we do sort of countenance

6347
03:36:19,830 --> 03:36:18,319
that idea

6348
03:36:21,990 --> 03:36:19,840
because we use the same explanatory

6349
03:36:23,590 --> 03:36:22,000
principles for things that exist at

6350
03:36:25,429 --> 03:36:23,600
different scales for example

6351
03:36:27,429 --> 03:36:25,439
even spatial temporally et cetera et

6352
03:36:30,710 --> 03:36:27,439
cetera

6353
03:36:34,389 --> 03:36:30,720
and regarding um um ejectable

6354
03:36:38,389 --> 03:36:34,399
uh uh qualia those are more problematic

6355
03:36:41,590 --> 03:36:38,399
yes i do i do and but what i do think

6356
03:36:43,990 --> 03:36:41,600
um is that we

6357
03:36:45,030 --> 03:36:44,000
so this is a meta critique i think we

6358
03:36:47,830 --> 03:36:45,040
are holding

6359
03:36:49,269 --> 03:36:47,840
the topic of consciousness a hostage to

6360
03:36:52,070 --> 03:36:49,279
adjective qualia

6361
03:36:53,750 --> 03:36:52,080
when we have clear evidence for states

6362
03:36:54,309 --> 03:36:53,760
of consciousness if that's the right

6363
03:36:56,309 --> 03:36:54,319
word

6364
03:36:58,229 --> 03:36:56,319
like the pure consciousness event in

6365
03:37:01,510 --> 03:36:58,239
which adjectival qualia

6366
03:37:04,630 --> 03:37:01,520
are not present and i think if we had

6367
03:37:05,349 --> 03:37:04,640
adjective qualia without the adverbial

6368
03:37:07,590 --> 03:37:05,359
qualia

6369
03:37:09,190 --> 03:37:07,600
we would have a genuine human monster we

6370
03:37:09,910 --> 03:37:09,200
would have no togetherness hereness

6371
03:37:12,070 --> 03:37:09,920
nowness

6372
03:37:13,190 --> 03:37:12,080
uh to these experience and we would have

6373
03:37:15,830 --> 03:37:13,200
the humane

6374
03:37:17,190 --> 03:37:15,840
uh the human monster of these completely

6375
03:37:19,750 --> 03:37:17,200
atomic blips

6376
03:37:21,830 --> 03:37:19,760
of qualia and i don't think that would

6377
03:37:25,590 --> 03:37:21,840
constitute a consciousness anymore

6378
03:37:27,030 --> 03:37:25,600
they would still leave a problem there

6379
03:37:31,030 --> 03:37:27,040
but the integration problem would still

6380
03:37:35,510 --> 03:37:31,040
be exactly exactly exactly

6381
03:37:37,830 --> 03:37:35,520
yeah i i think i understand your view um

6382
03:37:39,349 --> 03:37:37,840
i do think the burden of argument is

6383
03:37:41,670 --> 03:37:39,359
more on you because

6384
03:37:42,830 --> 03:37:41,680
you would have then to explicitly make

6385
03:37:45,990 --> 03:37:42,840
sense of

6386
03:37:46,710 --> 03:37:46,000
how uh at least adverbial qualia can

6387
03:37:49,030 --> 03:37:46,720
emerge from

6388
03:37:50,790 --> 03:37:49,040
non-qualia simply because of a kind of

6389
03:37:53,110 --> 03:37:50,800
access configuration

6390
03:37:54,229 --> 03:37:53,120
um i understand that this is where you

6391
03:37:56,550 --> 03:37:54,239
were leaning

6392
03:37:58,150 --> 03:37:56,560
um i would point out that giulio tononi

6393
03:38:01,750 --> 03:37:58,160
himself has come out

6394
03:38:04,790 --> 03:38:01,760
biting the bullet and say fine fine itt

6395
03:38:08,550 --> 03:38:04,800
iit uh presupposed to spend psychics

6396
03:38:10,070 --> 03:38:08,560
so he sort of yeah oh well i think it's

6397
03:38:12,070 --> 03:38:10,080
because there are a lot of

6398
03:38:13,110 --> 03:38:12,080
the problems well this goes to another

6399
03:38:16,150 --> 03:38:13,120
issue um

6400
03:38:18,550 --> 03:38:16,160
and um

6401
03:38:19,910 --> 03:38:18,560
oh crap i was supposed to end at three

6402
03:38:23,830 --> 03:38:19,920
o'clock

6403
03:38:26,870 --> 03:38:23,840
uh uh i'm so sorry um

6404
03:38:28,229 --> 03:38:26,880
i'm sorry uh it's uh it's uh

6405
03:38:29,830 --> 03:38:28,239
no i don't want to make the move or i

6406
03:38:31,830 --> 03:38:29,840
say something uh but i mean i think

6407
03:38:33,030 --> 03:38:31,840
there's deep connections between

6408
03:38:35,030 --> 03:38:33,040
the hard problem of consciousness and

6409
03:38:36,790 --> 03:38:35,040
the hard problem of relevance um and i

6410
03:38:39,510 --> 03:38:36,800
don't think it's a coincidence

6411
03:38:41,269 --> 03:38:39,520
that all the all most of the theories of

6412
03:38:43,110 --> 03:38:41,279
the functionality of consciousness

6413
03:38:44,950 --> 03:38:43,120
are converging on the relevance

6414
03:38:48,309 --> 03:38:44,960
realization idea

6415
03:38:50,950 --> 03:38:48,319
um and i mean i make that argument

6416
03:38:52,950 --> 03:38:50,960
um and and then i do think that there's

6417
03:38:54,309 --> 03:38:52,960
important overlap between i've already

6418
03:38:55,349 --> 03:38:54,319
argued this between intelligence and

6419
03:38:57,269 --> 03:38:55,359
consciousness

6420
03:38:58,550 --> 03:38:57,279
in some fashion but i agree with you

6421
03:39:01,189 --> 03:38:58,560
it's not an intelligence

6422
03:39:02,950 --> 03:39:01,199
that has anything like intentionality or

6423
03:39:04,150 --> 03:39:02,960
meta-reflective capacities

6424
03:39:05,670 --> 03:39:04,160
and i think that has to be something

6425
03:39:06,389 --> 03:39:05,680
like a base relevance realization

6426
03:39:10,150 --> 03:39:06,399
ability

6427
03:39:12,229 --> 03:39:10,160
that we get um with that verbal qualia

6428
03:39:13,590 --> 03:39:12,239
so i'm trying to close the explanatory

6429
03:39:15,510 --> 03:39:13,600
gap

6430
03:39:20,229 --> 03:39:15,520
okay let's close this video as well

6431
03:39:23,670 --> 03:39:22,229
yeah i i don't want to i don't want to i

6432
03:39:24,070 --> 03:39:23,680
don't want to sneak in a last word like

6433
03:39:26,229 --> 03:39:24,080
that

6434
03:39:27,429 --> 03:39:26,239
against bernardo i want to give you a

6435
03:39:31,110 --> 03:39:27,439
chest response

6436
03:39:33,189 --> 03:39:31,120
my last word is for you regardless of

6437
03:39:35,670 --> 03:39:33,199
whatever ontological differences

6438
03:39:36,630 --> 03:39:35,680
we seem to have john and i i think our

6439
03:39:39,349 --> 03:39:36,640
mission is

6440
03:39:40,309 --> 03:39:39,359
is the same or the reason why we are

6441
03:39:42,550 --> 03:39:40,319
doing what we do

6442
03:39:43,590 --> 03:39:42,560
is to address the meaning crisis i don't

6443
03:39:47,189 --> 03:39:43,600
use that term

6444
03:39:50,229 --> 03:39:47,199
but ultimately uh um i think uh we are

6445
03:39:53,030 --> 03:39:50,239
big buddies uh john we are allies yeah

6446
03:39:54,790 --> 03:39:53,040
in what we are trying to accomplish yeah

6447
03:39:55,429 --> 03:39:54,800
and there's a lot about what you say

6448
03:39:58,229 --> 03:39:55,439
that i think

6449
03:39:59,750 --> 03:39:58,239
is really important i mean i i don't

6450
03:40:01,110 --> 03:39:59,760
ultimately agree with you on some points

6451
03:40:02,389 --> 03:40:01,120
but i think you can see that there's

6452
03:40:05,269 --> 03:40:02,399
important ways in which

6453
03:40:06,150 --> 03:40:05,279
i am really significantly modifying the

6454
03:40:08,070 --> 03:40:06,160
standard

6455
03:40:09,429 --> 03:40:08,080
ontology to try and address some of your

6456
03:40:11,590 --> 03:40:09,439
concerns so at least

6457
03:40:12,469 --> 03:40:11,600
i at least think i'm responsible to your

6458
03:40:14,070 --> 03:40:12,479
concerns i

6459
03:40:15,830 --> 03:40:14,080
i know you don't have to you i'm not

6460
03:40:17,510 --> 03:40:15,840
asking you to agree with me but i am

6461
03:40:18,389 --> 03:40:17,520
asking you to see that i am responsible

6462
03:40:20,070 --> 03:40:18,399
to your concern

6463
03:40:21,429 --> 03:40:20,080
i acknowledge that and i appreciate it

6464
03:40:25,030 --> 03:40:21,439
very much

6465
03:40:28,389 --> 03:40:25,040
want to thank you both

6466
03:40:31,189 --> 03:40:28,399
i'm i'm incredibly blessed and

6467
03:40:31,990 --> 03:40:31,199
i'm so lucky that i get to be a vessel

6468
03:40:37,670 --> 03:40:32,000
for

6469
03:40:38,870 --> 03:40:37,680
at least temporarily so thank you so

6470
03:40:41,269 --> 03:40:38,880
much for that

6471
03:40:42,790 --> 03:40:41,279
i want to let the audience know about

6472
03:40:43,349 --> 03:40:42,800
where to find out more about you just in

6473
03:40:45,910 --> 03:40:43,359
a second

6474
03:40:47,349 --> 03:40:45,920
i also should let the audience know i've

6475
03:40:49,429 --> 03:40:47,359
been told i need to mention this

6476
03:40:51,429 --> 03:40:49,439
quite a bit more about i have a patreon

6477
03:40:53,189 --> 03:40:51,439
and i always feel slimy and

6478
03:40:54,550 --> 03:40:53,199
filled with discomposure when i talk

6479
03:40:56,389 --> 03:40:54,560
about that but

6480
03:40:58,070 --> 03:40:56,399
some people say just advertise it more

6481
03:40:58,950 --> 03:40:58,080
so if you want to see more conversations

6482
03:41:01,030 --> 03:40:58,960
like this

6483
03:41:02,309 --> 03:41:01,040
where there are kanye shentes like

6484
03:41:04,710 --> 03:41:02,319
bernardo and

6485
03:41:06,309 --> 03:41:04,720
john duking it out but also at the same

6486
03:41:10,070 --> 03:41:06,319
time loving one another

6487
03:41:13,269 --> 03:41:10,080
in their own manner please please do

6488
03:41:15,429 --> 03:41:13,279
visit patreon.com it

6489
03:41:17,750 --> 03:41:15,439
every dollar and literally every dollar

6490
03:41:20,309 --> 03:41:17,760
helps every patron helps and it helps me

6491
03:41:21,510 --> 03:41:20,319
extremely not only financially but

6492
03:41:22,790 --> 03:41:21,520
motivationally to

6493
03:41:24,790 --> 03:41:22,800
just to know that there are some people

6494
03:41:26,630 --> 03:41:24,800
that voluntarily they don't have to pay

6495
03:41:29,830 --> 03:41:26,640
you'll get this content no matter what

6496
03:41:33,510 --> 03:41:29,840
but they support it and that's i'm

6497
03:41:35,269 --> 03:41:33,520
well thank you so much with that said i

6498
03:41:36,630 --> 03:41:35,279
wanted to talk to you all about jesus

6499
03:41:38,389 --> 03:41:36,640
and buddha and what's the difference and

6500
03:41:40,309 --> 03:41:38,399
are they compatible

6501
03:41:42,309 --> 03:41:40,319
and what about god and free will and

6502
03:41:43,030 --> 03:41:42,319
there are quite a few more questions i

6503
03:41:45,189 --> 03:41:43,040
think

6504
03:41:46,309 --> 03:41:45,199
two or three i'm happy to talk with

6505
03:41:48,630 --> 03:41:46,319
bernardo again

6506
03:41:49,590 --> 03:41:48,640
i'm very happy being a delight and then

6507
03:41:53,189 --> 03:41:49,600
john is my brother

6508
03:41:54,630 --> 03:41:53,199
my brother-in-arms yeah very much i'd be

6509
03:41:57,590 --> 03:41:54,640
happy to talk with him again

6510
03:41:58,870 --> 03:41:57,600
great we'll arrange that again and if

6511
03:42:00,630 --> 03:41:58,880
anyone wants to know where to find out

6512
03:42:03,189 --> 03:42:00,640
more about you john and then bernardo

6513
03:42:04,469 --> 03:42:03,199
where do they go uh the best thing i

6514
03:42:06,550 --> 03:42:04,479
mean other than you know

6515
03:42:08,150 --> 03:42:06,560
doing academic search on google scholar

6516
03:42:09,189 --> 03:42:08,160
from my papers is you know go onto

6517
03:42:11,269 --> 03:42:09,199
youtube

6518
03:42:12,630 --> 03:42:11,279
go onto my channel look at awakening

6519
03:42:14,229 --> 03:42:12,640
from the meeting crisis

6520
03:42:15,910 --> 03:42:14,239
uh which is about the beating crisis of

6521
03:42:19,189 --> 03:42:15,920
course you could take a look at

6522
03:42:20,790 --> 03:42:19,199
a a a dialogical series i did with greg

6523
03:42:22,630 --> 03:42:20,800
enriquez about consciousness

6524
03:42:24,229 --> 03:42:22,640
called untangling the world not by the

6525
03:42:25,349 --> 03:42:24,239
way bernardo that's a that's a reference

6526
03:42:27,269 --> 03:42:25,359
to schopenhauer

6527
03:42:29,269 --> 03:42:27,279
uh right entangling the world not of

6528
03:42:30,150 --> 03:42:29,279
consciousness um and then i'm currently

6529
03:42:31,990 --> 03:42:30,160
doing one

6530
03:42:33,510 --> 03:42:32,000
called the elusive eye the nature and

6531
03:42:35,750 --> 03:42:33,520
function of the self

6532
03:42:37,269 --> 03:42:35,760
uh with uh greg enriquez again and

6533
03:42:39,189 --> 03:42:37,279
christopher master pietro

6534
03:42:40,389 --> 03:42:39,199
uh so that would be so and then if you

6535
03:42:42,070 --> 03:42:40,399
want to see more of these kinds of

6536
03:42:43,990 --> 03:42:42,080
dialogues on my channel i have an

6537
03:42:44,950 --> 03:42:44,000
ongoing dialogical series called voices

6538
03:42:46,870 --> 03:42:44,960
with reiki

6539
03:42:47,990 --> 03:42:46,880
where i try to exemplify how we can

6540
03:42:52,469 --> 03:42:48,000
weave together

6541
03:42:56,389 --> 03:42:52,479
argumentation and genuine deal logos

6542
03:42:57,269 --> 03:42:56,399
bernardo just go to bernardocastrop.com

6543
03:43:00,630 --> 03:42:57,279
there's a lot of

6544
03:43:02,389 --> 03:43:00,640
free stuff linked from there okay

6545
03:43:04,550 --> 03:43:02,399
great and if you all want i can give you

6546
03:43:05,349 --> 03:43:04,560
the video files for this once it's up on

6547
03:43:07,030 --> 03:43:05,359
our site if you

6548
03:43:08,630 --> 03:43:07,040
want to use it as extra content on yours

6549
03:43:10,389 --> 03:43:08,640
you're more than welcome to

6550
03:43:12,469 --> 03:43:10,399
thank you so much again thank you this

6551
03:43:15,110 --> 03:43:12,479
was

6552
03:43:15,830 --> 03:43:15,120
far different in in a positive manner

6553
03:43:17,750 --> 03:43:15,840
than i

6554
03:43:19,510 --> 03:43:17,760
expected it to be i'm glad that i took a

6555
03:43:21,269 --> 03:43:19,520
backseat because it's mainly about

6556
03:43:22,710 --> 03:43:21,279
like i said theo maki but also theo

6557
03:43:25,750 --> 03:43:22,720
locution so

6558
03:43:28,630 --> 03:43:25,760
thank you i'm happy that you were yeah

6559
03:43:30,070 --> 03:43:28,640
and i wanted to thank you you helped us

6560
03:43:31,030 --> 03:43:30,080
to steer out of getting locked into

6561
03:43:33,189 --> 03:43:31,040
local minima

6562
03:43:34,469 --> 03:43:33,199
that i thought was indeed we're very

6563
03:43:37,269 --> 03:43:34,479
helpful for both of us

6564
03:43:38,630 --> 03:43:37,279
so thank you thank you bernardo great

6565
03:43:40,229 --> 03:43:38,640
great pleasure meeting you great

6566
03:43:41,910 --> 03:43:40,239
pleasure indeed enormous pleasure from

6567
03:43:43,349 --> 03:43:41,920
my side as well john great to

6568
03:43:46,469 --> 03:43:43,359
meeting you and getting to know you

6569
03:43:49,030 --> 03:43:46,479
let's do this again i'm happy to do so

6570
03:43:49,590 --> 03:43:49,040
and not not i love don i love don

6571
03:43:51,269 --> 03:43:49,600
hoffman

6572
03:43:52,790 --> 03:43:51,279
but i'm actually i'm glad that he wasn't

6573
03:43:53,429 --> 03:43:52,800
here because it would be far too many

6574
03:43:54,950 --> 03:43:53,439
voices

6575
03:43:56,550 --> 03:43:54,960
and it was great to see you all get to

6576
03:43:58,950 --> 03:43:56,560
know one another and try and understand

6577
03:43:59,910 --> 03:43:58,960
each other's viewpoints thank you

6578
03:44:01,590 --> 03:43:59,920
excellent

6579
03:44:14,830 --> 03:44:01,600
take care everybody take care have some